20k

wiki-leaker wrote:

Tringreen wrote:

wiki-leaker wrote:

Freathy wrote:

125+1 wrote:

yeh true, were always getting 20k plus gates.

That's how brent wants you to think. But the crowds have stayed away because we're always being held back by outclassed, greedy, ambitionless 'boards' and 'chairmen'. If one day we actually got taken over by someone with a bit bit of class and vision and started to achieve do you really think we'd still get poxy 6k attendances? For me this just about confirms that brent and his useless 'board' are nothing more than the latest in the long line of incumbents keeping Argyle down.

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We only averaged above 15,000 in the Championship once.

I'm not sure this has much to do with James Brent.

When Holloway was manager, we were attracting 13,000ish per game.

What exactly would be the point of building a massive stadium when the demand just isn't down here? People will talk about the massive catchment area we have but that'd only ever be realised if we managed to get into the Premier League and, even then, we'd only realise this massive crowd when we played Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool. It's true that we probably have 50,000+ people interested in football in the area... but they're interested in watching Barcelona and Man Utd on Sky and not paying £20+ for a ticket to an actual real game.

Just to put this into perspective, only 8 teams last year in the Championship had an average home crowd of 20,000+
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The top 15 clubs attendance wise, with the exception of Cardiff, all have fairly recent top flight exposure. That will always be the crucial factor compared to Argyle.

Cardiff have risked everything in recent seasons and their potential support is rewarding them.

We Trusted in Stapes.

In addition, Average gates circa 20k means that on occasion larger attendances were attracted. There is absolutely no reason why Plymouth can't be as big as those top 15. It is going to take cash backed ambition and is a long way off at present, so 20k is fine for now.

Here's some reasons.

Plymouth has never had top flight football in their history. So your point is completely valid that it's a "crucial factor". In essence, you've contradicted yourself by then stating there's "no reason".

The catchment area that people talk of is purely hypothetical. There might be 500 people in Liskeard who would fit into our catchment area, there might be 1,000 in Tavistock, 200 in Launceston, 500 in Totnes etc. etc. but that doesn't mean they'd all attend regularly and, even more importantly, become season ticket holders. It's a bit of a myth in Argyle fan lore that this catchment area will ever be realised. You could argue that Bristol should be getting similar crowds to the two Liverpool clubs given the catchment area - they simply don't. I don't think it's a chicken and egg scenario as it's purely hypothetical.

Cardiff have risked everything but they're still in the Championship - I don't quite understand the comparison as it's not a model I'd want to see our club emulate. Risk everything and be the 'almost' club every season.

That's not a contradiction. There's no reason we can't be as big if we do get top flight exposure but for a club of our terrible history of never going for it, the potential fanbase is rightly sceptical. TheY simply have never had the Tshirt as those at Norwich and Southampton etc have.You can get a very nice Pasoti Tshirt though Even Ipswich hold onto circa 20k gates because of their history and the glory years when they took Mariner off us, despite many seasons of mid table obscurity. A year before , we had a crowd close to 30k for a third tier top of the table evening clash with Blackburn.I remember it as if it was yesterday.'Mariner Sails In !'

What is worse re Cardiff ? Risk everything aiming for the stars, or lose everything like Argyle, not even bloody trying.

If people are happy with the way things are shaping up for the forseeable future, good luck to them.Mediocrity and lower league football is not for me. I've been following Argyle for over 50 years and the last 6 or 7 have been the most predictably depressing of all.

Will we never learn that you have to speculate to accumulate.Trust in Stapes...The Organic Model...Year on Year Progress. Tried that and got the Tshirt.

Freathy wrote:

125+1 wrote:

yeh true, were always getting 20k plus gates.

That's how brent wants you to think. But the crowds have stayed away because we're always being held back by outclassed, greedy, ambitionless 'boards' and 'chairmen'. If one day we actually got taken over by someone with a bit bit of class and vision and started to achieve do you really think we'd still get poxy 6k attendances? For me this just about confirms that brent and his useless 'board' are nothing more than the latest in the long line of incumbents keeping Argyle down.

Again look at the stats Freathy, before you pour out more dribble. Argyle were in the Championship how many years, and year in, year out the attendances were dropping, but funnily enough our league position until the relagation season was improving every year, so that theory is out the window.

I suppose Sir R's 43k stadium plan was right up your alley, great atmosphere with 37k empty seats.

You keep saying someone with vision, what you really mean is someone rich who will fund the club into millions of debt until they get bored leaving the club in financial ruin again.

What would happen if Man City's owners bailed out on them, Ambramovich got bored, or moving down the scale, Hearts owner stopped financing them, its all there to see for everyone.

Your sugar daddy will never arrive, keep dreaming though, we all know the song "you've got to have a dream"

125+1 wrote:

Freathy wrote:

125+1 wrote:

yeh true, were always getting 20k plus gates.

That's how brent wants you to think. But the crowds have stayed away because we're always being held back by outclassed, greedy, ambitionless 'boards' and 'chairmen'. If one day we actually got taken over by someone with a bit bit of class and vision and started to achieve do you really think we'd still get poxy 6k attendances? For me this just about confirms that brent and his useless 'board' are nothing more than the latest in the long line of incumbents keeping Argyle down.

Again look at the stats Freathy, before you pour out more dribble. Argyle were in the Championship how many years, and year in, year out the attendances were dropping, but funnily enough our league position until the relagation season was improving every year, so that theory is out the window.

I suppose Sir R's 43k stadium plan was right up your alley, great atmosphere with 37k empty seats.

You keep saying someone with vision, what you really mean is someone rich who will fund the club into millions of debt until they get bored leaving the club in financial ruin again.

What would happen if Man City's owners bailed out on them, Ambramovich got bored, or moving down the scale, Hearts owner stopped financing them, its all there to see for everyone.

Your sugar daddy will never arrive, keep dreaming though, we all know the song "you've got to have a dream"

This post is the biggest heap of bullshit in ATD history.

Greenskin wrote:

125+1 wrote:

Freathy wrote:

125+1 wrote:

yeh true, were always getting 20k plus gates.

That's how brent wants you to think. But the crowds have stayed away because we're always being held back by outclassed, greedy, ambitionless 'boards' and 'chairmen'. If one day we actually got taken over by someone with a bit bit of class and vision and started to achieve do you really think we'd still get poxy 6k attendances? For me this just about confirms that brent and his useless 'board' are nothing more than the latest in the long line of incumbents keeping Argyle down.

Again look at the stats Freathy, before you pour out more dribble. Argyle were in the Championship how many years, and year in, year out the attendances were dropping, but funnily enough our league position until the relagation season was improving every year, so that theory is out the window.

I suppose Sir R's 43k stadium plan was right up your alley, great atmosphere with 37k empty seats.

You keep saying someone with vision, what you really mean is someone rich who will fund the club into millions of debt until they get bored leaving the club in financial ruin again.

What would happen if Man City's owners bailed out on them, Ambramovich got bored, or moving down the scale, Hearts owner stopped financing them, its all there to see for everyone.

Your sugar daddy will never arrive, keep dreaming though, we all know the song "you've got to have a dream"

This post is the biggest heap of bullshit in ATD history.

That would take some doing

The last upswing of the cycle that is Argyle's history peaked with the Watford quarter final and the team winning the last five games of that season.

The full house that saw the Watford game, plus the millions of TV viewers, probably thought that, finally PAFC might be on the verge of achieving their potential. This with a team who's star players were SEB, Gosling, Akos and Halmosi.

So what did the club do to cement that belief among the fans? Give long contracts to their star players, seek extra investment, give the Manager a long term contract, add one or two Prem quality players to the squad?

No, they quibbled about signing Halmosi on a permanent deal for a relatively modest fee, confirming the view of the sceptics that Argyle were a small town club with a small minded outlook.

We all know what happened next.

I can remember when we packed HP with 28,000 for an FA Cup tie against everton, this was not so long ago

punchdrunk wrote:

I can remember when we packed HP with 28,000 for an FA Cup tie against everton, this was not so long ago

I'll raise you a comfortable 38000 sell out against Everton in the FA cup,1975.

Enhanced attendances are dependent on the floating supporter turning up. Just one experience a la the Torquay debacle stops them dead in their tracks. If we were to repeat the success of the early part of this decade, then sure we may average 15000, but there maybe another 10K sitting at home thinking "we'll never get in anyway".

It's all about ambition, if a new stand is going to be built surely the cheapest long term option would be ensure it's big enough at the outset.

punchdrunk wrote:

I can remember when we packed HP with 28,000 for an FA Cup tie against everton, this was not so long ago

It wasn't so recent either. If you mean the 1-1 draw, that was in 1989. The 3-1 defeat was nowhere near 28,000. I was at both and the 89 game was probably that sort of figure, but that's now 23 years ago!

The Grand National is on tomorrow. The best way to have a gamble is to put your own £1 each way on a nag but persuade your next door neighbour to sell their house and put the money on your dead certain tip. You will have loads of fun watching as his money goes down the drain potentially but hey, it might win. That is exactly what people do who harrang somebody else to risk their fortune on the outside chance of fame and fortune with their football club. No risk to the proposers but every risk for the doer. The only way this club would get a sugar daddy is for somebody with acres of wedge being a local person and a football lover and supporter. Lets draw up a list of likely candidates who fit that criteria.

List of Cadidates

......................

That should do it then.

Just wait until I win the lottery SG, you'll eat your words then


Have to be a Euromillions jobby mind.

Brighton, Reading, Barnsley, Cardiff, Stoke, Milton Keynes, Hull, Preston...

Will all have bigger grounds than us. Bristol Rovers are moving into a 23k number, I believe, whilst City are going bigger again. We'll be dwarved by traditional rivals and lumped in with Port Vale, Carlisle and Notts County.

The 'extension' will never, ever happen. Don't use it to justify cheapness now. Get it done and get it done to a decent size. Or don't bother at all.

I'm not talking massive, no-one is asking for the 43k Gardener pipe dream and it is as moot an example as Darlo. But if we're building it now, I think 22k should be the very minimum, and 24 would be ideal, much over 25k is optimistic. With the possibility to add onto that should the need arise, of course. Cardiff were averaging 11k in the Champ playoffs at the old Ninian Park. They now get 23k.

Stop thinking westcountry backwater and start thinking traditional second tier football club with ambition ffs!

I agree with everything Mock said.

The last time we were at this level our average attendances were below 5k until our promotion season. At the moment we're well over 6k. Should we make a swiftish return to the 2nd tier, with the new stand having already been built, we could probably expect to exceed the attendances of 2004-2005 but not with a 20k stadium. Take out seats lost for segregation and the usual ticketing fiasco associated with Argyle & high profile matches and we're already below 19k for the higher profile all-ticket affairs. 23k minimum for me.

Greenskin wrote:

125+1 wrote:

Freathy wrote:

125+1 wrote:

yeh true, were always getting 20k plus gates.

That's how brent wants you to think. But the crowds have stayed away because we're always being held back by outclassed, greedy, ambitionless 'boards' and 'chairmen'. If one day we actually got taken over by someone with a bit bit of class and vision and started to achieve do you really think we'd still get poxy 6k attendances? For me this just about confirms that brent and his useless 'board' are nothing more than the latest in the long line of incumbents keeping Argyle down.

Again look at the stats Freathy, before you pour out more dribble. Argyle were in the Championship how many years, and year in, year out the attendances were dropping, but funnily enough our league position until the relagation season was improving every year, so that theory is out the window.

I suppose Sir R's 43k stadium plan was right up your alley, great atmosphere with 37k empty seats.

You keep saying someone with vision, what you really mean is someone rich who will fund the club into millions of debt until they get bored leaving the club in financial ruin again.

What would happen if Man City's owners bailed out on them, Ambramovich got bored, or moving down the scale, Hearts owner stopped financing them, its all there to see for everyone.

Your sugar daddy will never arrive, keep dreaming though, we all know the song "you've got to have a dream"

This post is the biggest heap of bullshit in ATD history.

Far from it, it's a reality check for FFS.
We have to accept that we are a football outpost and it's no coincidence that we have never ever attracted that "sugar daddy" who will take us to the promised land.
It' s easy to say we need financial backer(s) but another game completely to find one willing to stump up the millions that's needed.

In the last 50 years we have spent more time in the third tier than the second and I am not saying that we have to accept that but attracting big money to teams in the third and fourth tiers of the football league is nigh impossible.
So it's the Euro Millions or nothing.

Greenskin wrote:

125+1 wrote:

Freathy wrote:

125+1 wrote:

yeh true, were always getting 20k plus gates.

That's how brent wants you to think. But the crowds have stayed away because we're always being held back by outclassed, greedy, ambitionless 'boards' and 'chairmen'. If one day we actually got taken over by someone with a bit bit of class and vision and started to achieve do you really think we'd still get poxy 6k attendances? For me this just about confirms that brent and his useless 'board' are nothing more than the latest in the long line of incumbents keeping Argyle down.

Again look at the stats Freathy, before you pour out more dribble. Argyle were in the Championship how many years, and year in, year out the attendances were dropping, but funnily enough our league position until the relagation season was improving every year, so that theory is out the window.

I suppose Sir R's 43k stadium plan was right up your alley, great atmosphere with 37k empty seats.

You keep saying someone with vision, what you really mean is someone rich who will fund the club into millions of debt until they get bored leaving the club in financial ruin again.

What would happen if Man City's owners bailed out on them, Ambramovich got bored, or moving down the scale, Hearts owner stopped financing them, its all there to see for everyone.

Your sugar daddy will never arrive, keep dreaming though, we all know the song "you've got to have a dream"

This post is the biggest heap of bullshit in ATD history.

I see that you're saving your breath Greenie,

Tringreen wrote:

Greenskin wrote:

125+1 wrote:

Freathy wrote:

125+1 wrote:

yeh true, were always getting 20k plus gates.

That's how brent wants you to think. But the crowds have stayed away because we're always being held back by outclassed, greedy, ambitionless 'boards' and 'chairmen'. If one day we actually got taken over by someone with a bit bit of class and vision and started to achieve do you really think we'd still get poxy 6k attendances? For me this just about confirms that brent and his useless 'board' are nothing more than the latest in the long line of incumbents keeping Argyle down.

Again look at the stats Freathy, before you pour out more dribble. Argyle were in the Championship how many years, and year in, year out the attendances were dropping, but funnily enough our league position until the relagation season was improving every year, so that theory is out the window.

I suppose Sir R's 43k stadium plan was right up your alley, great atmosphere with 37k empty seats.

You keep saying someone with vision, what you really mean is someone rich who will fund the club into millions of debt until they get bored leaving the club in financial ruin again.

What would happen if Man City's owners bailed out on them, Ambramovich got bored, or moving down the scale, Hearts owner stopped financing them, its all there to see for everyone.

Your sugar daddy will never arrive, keep dreaming though, we all know the song "you've got to have a dream"

This post is the biggest heap of bullshit in ATD history.

I see that you're saving your breath Greenie,

There's no point in arguing with the "let's keep Argyle crap" brigade. Any form of ambition is clearly utterly abhorant to them.

Freathy wrote:

Tringreen wrote:

Greenskin wrote:

125+1 wrote:

Freathy wrote:

125+1 wrote:

yeh true, were always getting 20k plus gates.

That's how brent wants you to think. But the crowds have stayed away because we're always being held back by outclassed, greedy, ambitionless 'boards' and 'chairmen'. If one day we actually got taken over by someone with a bit bit of class and vision and started to achieve do you really think we'd still get poxy 6k attendances? For me this just about confirms that brent and his useless 'board' are nothing more than the latest in the long line of incumbents keeping Argyle down.

Again look at the stats Freathy, before you pour out more dribble. Argyle were in the Championship how many years, and year in, year out the attendances were dropping, but funnily enough our league position until the relagation season was improving every year, so that theory is out the window.

I suppose Sir R's 43k stadium plan was right up your alley, great atmosphere with 37k empty seats.

You keep saying someone with vision, what you really mean is someone rich who will fund the club into millions of debt until they get bored leaving the club in financial ruin again.

What would happen if Man City's owners bailed out on them, Ambramovich got bored, or moving down the scale, Hearts owner stopped financing them, its all there to see for everyone.

Your sugar daddy will never arrive, keep dreaming though, we all know the song "you've got to have a dream"

This post is the biggest heap of bullshit in ATD history.

I see that you're saving your breath Greenie,

There's no point in arguing with the "let's keep Argyle crap" brigade. Any form of ambition is clearly utterly abhorant to them.

When you find the guy who is going to stump up the millions needed then I and probably countless others will then start thinking about ambition.

gasser9 wrote:

Freathy wrote:

Tringreen wrote:

Greenskin wrote:

125+1 wrote:

Freathy wrote:

125+1 wrote:

yeh true, were always getting 20k plus gates.

That's how brent wants you to think. But the crowds have stayed away because we're always being held back by outclassed, greedy, ambitionless 'boards' and 'chairmen'. If one day we actually got taken over by someone with a bit bit of class and vision and started to achieve do you really think we'd still get poxy 6k attendances? For me this just about confirms that brent and his useless 'board' are nothing more than the latest in the long line of incumbents keeping Argyle down.

Again look at the stats Freathy, before you pour out more dribble. Argyle were in the Championship how many years, and year in, year out the attendances were dropping, but funnily enough our league position until the relagation season was improving every year, so that theory is out the window.

I suppose Sir R's 43k stadium plan was right up your alley, great atmosphere with 37k empty seats.

You keep saying someone with vision, what you really mean is someone rich who will fund the club into millions of debt until they get bored leaving the club in financial ruin again.

What would happen if Man City's owners bailed out on them, Ambramovich got bored, or moving down the scale, Hearts owner stopped financing them, its all there to see for everyone.

Your sugar daddy will never arrive, keep dreaming though, we all know the song "you've got to have a dream"

This post is the biggest heap of bullshit in ATD history.

I see that you're saving your breath Greenie,

There's no point in arguing with the "let's keep Argyle crap" brigade. Any form of ambition is clearly utterly abhorant to them.

When you find the guy who is going to stump up the millions needed then I and probably countless others will then start thinking about ambition.

Just tell me the mythical individual figures who "stumped up millions" to help Swansea and Hull up the leagues? You're going to have a problem in identifying the chap,because he doesn't exist.There were well organised,ambitious consortia involved,no sugar daddy.And can you please tell me in what way Plymouth is a greater geographical outpost than Swansea and Hull?

It is often spouted on this site about not being proper fans a statement which is meant to belittle certain people on another site. The statement you made Freathy about a waste of time arguing with the no ambition brigade is tantamount to the same thing which is often derided elsewhere. Who on any of the posts on this thread has said they lack ambition for Argyle? None is the answer except it is your's and a few others only ever argument if people don't moan about everything and anything.

Somebody please show me where it matters if team x, y or z club has a bigger one than ours. Please show me where there is any sort of current need for a bigger stadium than is being proposed. Please show me where these people are who are currently going to filll these extra seats. The same applies to these questions as greenskins answer regarding sugar daddies. They don't exist right now or probably anytime soon. If nothing was done capacity wise at all then we would not be under sized. This has absolutely nothing to do with not wanting Argyle to do well and be successful or about lacking ambition or "trusting in stapes" which is the other trotted out put down often used. It is about what we realistically need right now.

Sensiblegreeny wrote:

It is often spouted on this site about not being proper fans a statement which is meant to belittle certain people on another site. The statement you made Freathy about a waste of time arguing with the no ambition brigade is tantamount to the same thing which is often derided elsewhere. Who on any of the posts on this thread has said they lack ambition for Argyle? None is the answer except it is your's and a few others only ever argument if people don't moan about everything and anything.

Somebody please show me where it matters if team x, y or z club has a bigger one than ours. Please show me where there is any sort of current need for a bigger stadium than is being proposed. Please show me where these people are who are currently going to filll these extra seats. The same applies to these questions as greenskins answer regarding sugar daddies. They don't exist right now or probably anytime soon. If nothing was done capacity wise at all then we would not be under sized. This has absolutely nothing to do with not wanting Argyle to do well and be successful or about lacking ambition or "trusting in stapes" which is the other trotted out put down often used. It is about what we realistically need right now.

So,cutting to the chase,what would your ambitions for Argyle ultimately be?

Seriously is that a genuine question? The premiership selling out a 50k stadium every home match and eventually playing in the Champions League. Why do people think that others lack ambition for Argyle? I want success for the club on the field and at my age as soon as possible.

The other questions are what do I expect or not expect. I expect Argyle not to go out of business chasing the above dream. I do not expect other people to risk their cash for the benefit of my dream and entertainment. The next question is what do I wish for. I wish for some very rich person to come along who has the clout to pay for Argyle's climb up the leagues to satisfy their own ego if they wish and not have to bother about the cost.

I'm no different from you people in the main it is only what I expect that is different.

Sensiblegreeny wrote:

Seriously is that a genuine question? The premiership selling out a 50k stadium every home match and eventually playing in the Champions League. Why do people think that others lack ambition for Argyle? I want success for the club on the field and at my age as soon as possible.

The other questions are what do I expect or not expect. I expect Argyle not to go out of business chasing the above dream. I do not expect other people to risk their cash for the benefit of my dream and entertainment. The next question is what do I wish for. I wish for some very rich person to come along who has the clout to pay for Argyle's climb up the leagues to satisfy their own ego if they wish and not have to bother about the cost.

I'm no different from you people in the main it is only what I expect that is different.

Course it was a serious question.It wasn't really answered,though.

Perhaps your question should be a bit more specific then greenskin as the answer I gave is genuinely what I want, expect, don't expect and wish for. You asked and I answered unless I misinterpreted the question "what would your ambitions for Argyle be". Just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean it isn't one. Perhaps you should write my opinion for me.