20k

Further proof Brent doesn't really care about the football side of the business.

Mock Cuncher wrote:

Further proof Brent doesn't really care about the football side of the business.

Care to justify that comment Mock?

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(for anybody who hasn't seen)

Hmmm, I am unsure.

yeh true, were always getting 20k plus gates.

Obviously Mock wanted Sir Roy et al to stay around, there was ambition then , 43 k stadium wasn't it?

Lots of questions on that thread asking how many times we've had 20k+ attendances over the last 30-40 years. Perhaps the question should be how many seasons have we spent under-achieving during that same period?. The club has never been allowed to progress beyond a struggling 2nd tier team despite some glorious opportunities to do so.

That's it tho' we've done as well in the last 1o years as we ever have. We've always been a poor second tier, top third tier side until the last two nadirs in our history.

125+1 wrote:

yeh true, were always getting 20k plus gates.

That's how brent wants you to think. But the crowds have stayed away because we're always being held back by outclassed, greedy, ambitionless 'boards' and 'chairmen'. If one day we actually got taken over by someone with a bit bit of class and vision and started to achieve do you really think we'd still get poxy 6k attendances? For me this just about confirms that brent and his useless 'board' are nothing more than the latest in the long line of incumbents keeping Argyle down.

I have only bothered to read the first page of posts on the PASOTI site and frankly can't see what is wrong with what has been written there. People question rightly when Argyle have attracted near 20k crowd even when Holloway was here and we were doing so well. I certainly don't remember people hanging from the rafters. 20k seems reasonable enough to me and it has been said that there is scope to increase that should the need arise. What would people rather have, a finished ground with a reasonable capacity or it just left alone and not bother. I understand the suspicion that exists given what the last Board did to the club and arguably previous Boards but why does everything ever announced have to be met with such negativity. Brent is not to blame for the current situation and nobody would fix Argyle by waving some instant magic wand. He might be criticised for some things but completing the ground?

Sensiblegreeny wrote:

I have only bothered to read the first page of posts on the PASOTI site and frankly can't see what is wrong with what has been written there. People question rightly when Argyle have attracted near 20k crowd even when Holloway was here and we were doing so well. I certainly don't remember people hanging from the rafters. 20k seems reasonable enough to me and it has been said that there is scope to increase that should the need arise. What would people rather have, a finished ground with a reasonable capacity or it just left alone and not bother. I understand the suspicion that exists given what the last Board did to the club and arguably previous Boards but why does everything ever announced have to be met with such negativity. Brent is not to blame for the current situation and nobody would fix Argyle by waving some instant magic wand. He might be criticised for some things but completing the ground?

An oasis of sanity amongst some frankly bizarre posts (on both sites). Brent's getting the ground finished, at a capacity that's in keeping with both our current status and recent history. And if something seismic were to occur and we made it to the Premiership, the facility to increase capacity exists. Seriously, where's the frickin' problem with all that?

From below the half way point in the Championship and lower leagues, 20,000 is adequate. Anything above the half way point in the Championship and past the half way mark in the season, then 20,000 will be far too small.

Make of that what you will.

Andy_Symons wrote:

Sensiblegreeny wrote:

I have only bothered to read the first page of posts on the PASOTI site and frankly can't see what is wrong with what has been written there. People question rightly when Argyle have attracted near 20k crowd even when Holloway was here and we were doing so well. I certainly don't remember people hanging from the rafters. 20k seems reasonable enough to me and it has been said that there is scope to increase that should the need arise. What would people rather have, a finished ground with a reasonable capacity or it just left alone and not bother. I understand the suspicion that exists given what the last Board did to the club and arguably previous Boards but why does everything ever announced have to be met with such negativity. Brent is not to blame for the current situation and nobody would fix Argyle by waving some instant magic wand. He might be criticised for some things but completing the ground?

An oasis of sanity amongst some frankly bizarre posts (on both sites). Brent's getting the ground finished, at a capacity that's in keeping with both our current status and recent history. And if something seismic were to occur and we made it to the Premiership, the facility to increase capacity exists. Seriously, where's the frickin' problem with all that?

I have to agree.

We are only likely to exceed 20k gates once we are a truly competitive Championship club with cash backed ambition being clearly demonstrated from the owners. If we were to reach the top flight, as long as increased capacity could be added, then is the time to increase capacity.

If you really, honestly believe that the extension is ever likely to happen then you have more faith than I do.

Has Brent made some sort of statement then? I can't see a link.

Clicked on the Tw@tossi thread but got as far as that tosspot ollieargyle9, and gave up...

Freathy wrote:

125+1 wrote:

yeh true, were always getting 20k plus gates.

That's how brent wants you to think. But the crowds have stayed away because we're always being held back by outclassed, greedy, ambitionless 'boards' and 'chairmen'. If one day we actually got taken over by someone with a bit bit of class and vision and started to achieve do you really think we'd still get poxy 6k attendances? For me this just about confirms that brent and his useless 'board' are nothing more than the latest in the long line of incumbents keeping Argyle down.

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We only averaged above 15,000 in the Championship once.

I'm not sure this has much to do with James Brent.

When Holloway was manager, we were attracting 13,000ish per game.

What exactly would be the point of building a massive stadium when the demand just isn't down here? People will talk about the massive catchment area we have but that'd only ever be realised if we managed to get into the Premier League and, even then, we'd only realise this massive crowd when we played Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool. It's true that we probably have 50,000+ people interested in football in the area... but they're interested in watching Barcelona and Man Utd on Sky and not paying £20+ for a ticket to an actual real game.

Just to put this into perspective, only 8 teams last year in the Championship had an average home crowd of 20,000+
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Sir Francis Drake wrote:

If you really, honestly believe that the extension is ever likely to happen then you have more faith than I do.

I agree there Franny.

The problem is, building a 20,000 capacity is fine. But the chances are, if we ever get to the Prem, in all probability it will be for one season only. Extending the capacity would at the very least, take another 12 months - probably longer with our inept planning dept. The work would probably mean a temporary reduction in capacity, so in effect our one season in the Prem could see us have a reduced capacity! Net result when we get relegated at the end of the season? A greatly increased capacity - to play in the Championship!!!

Czarcasm wrote:

Has Brent made some sort of statement then? I can't see a link.

Clicked on the Tw@tossi thread but got as far as that tosspot ollieargyle9, and gave up...

Czarcasm wrote:

Has Brent made some sort of statement then? I can't see a link.

Clicked on the Tw@tossi thread but got as far as that tosspot ollieargyle9, and gave up...

I am mad of sterner stuff. Here is Jimmy on the subject from the recent Q&A.

Quote :

Q: When is work likely to start on the replacement grandstand and what do you expect the capacity of Home Park to be once the work is completed?
Gaspargomez; Lloyd; Chardreadz

A: We are hopeful that, subject to necessary planning consents and putting in place the requisite funding, work can start within the next couple of years. Capacity of the stadium has not been finally agreed but we hope will be circa 20,000 and will be designed to facilitate a further increase in capacity when required.

If that is the advice of his advisors then he needs new advisors. A 20k capacity is so village they might as well call it the Argyle Village when it's built. If it gets built.

wiki-leaker wrote:

Freathy wrote:

125+1 wrote:

yeh true, were always getting 20k plus gates.

That's how brent wants you to think. But the crowds have stayed away because we're always being held back by outclassed, greedy, ambitionless 'boards' and 'chairmen'. If one day we actually got taken over by someone with a bit bit of class and vision and started to achieve do you really think we'd still get poxy 6k attendances? For me this just about confirms that brent and his useless 'board' are nothing more than the latest in the long line of incumbents keeping Argyle down.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
We only averaged above 15,000 in the Championship once.

I'm not sure this has much to do with James Brent.

When Holloway was manager, we were attracting 13,000ish per game.

What exactly would be the point of building a massive stadium when the demand just isn't down here? People will talk about the massive catchment area we have but that'd only ever be realised if we managed to get into the Premier League and, even then, we'd only realise this massive crowd when we played Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool. It's true that we probably have 50,000+ people interested in football in the area... but they're interested in watching Barcelona and Man Utd on Sky and not paying £20+ for a ticket to an actual real game.

Just to put this into perspective, only 8 teams last year in the Championship had an average home crowd of 20,000+
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The top 15 clubs attendance wise, with the exception of Cardiff, all have fairly recent top flight exposure. That will always be the crucial factor compared to Argyle.

Cardiff have risked everything in recent seasons and their potential support is rewarding them.

We Trusted in Stapes.

In addition, Average gates circa 20k means that on occasion larger attendances were attracted. There is absolutely no reason why Plymouth can't be as big as those top 15. It is going to take cash backed ambition and is a long way off at present, so 20k is fine for now.

Tringreen wrote:

wiki-leaker wrote:

Freathy wrote:

125+1 wrote:

yeh true, were always getting 20k plus gates.

That's how brent wants you to think. But the crowds have stayed away because we're always being held back by outclassed, greedy, ambitionless 'boards' and 'chairmen'. If one day we actually got taken over by someone with a bit bit of class and vision and started to achieve do you really think we'd still get poxy 6k attendances? For me this just about confirms that brent and his useless 'board' are nothing more than the latest in the long line of incumbents keeping Argyle down.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
We only averaged above 15,000 in the Championship once.

I'm not sure this has much to do with James Brent.

When Holloway was manager, we were attracting 13,000ish per game.

What exactly would be the point of building a massive stadium when the demand just isn't down here? People will talk about the massive catchment area we have but that'd only ever be realised if we managed to get into the Premier League and, even then, we'd only realise this massive crowd when we played Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool. It's true that we probably have 50,000+ people interested in football in the area... but they're interested in watching Barcelona and Man Utd on Sky and not paying £20+ for a ticket to an actual real game.

Just to put this into perspective, only 8 teams last year in the Championship had an average home crowd of 20,000+
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The top 15 clubs attendance wise, with the exception of Cardiff, all have fairly recent top flight exposure. That will always be the crucial factor compared to Argyle.

Cardiff have risked everything in recent seasons and their potential support is rewarding them.

We Trusted in Stapes.

In addition, Average gates circa 20k means that on occasion larger attendances were attracted. There is absolutely no reason why Plymouth can't be as big as those top 15. It is going to take cash backed ambition and is a long way off at present, so 20k is fine for now.

You mean spending beyond our means? That is just not feasible anymore Tring unless you have sugar daddy with far more personal resources than James Brent. Sensible people will simply not speculate on football and indeed less than 8 months ago we couldn't pay our staff because the previous regime had overspent.

This is a new generation of football ownership and the old war stories about ambition and spending cash simply does not work for a League 2 club.

It is not a case of not trusting James Brent because at every stage he has been at pains to say that the club will live within its means.

Brent has said he would look to sell to someone with the ambition to go for the Prem. I take that as meaning someone with cash backed ambition. Even a Manderic type.

A club like Argyle could be a real winner for someone clued up concerning potential.


Cardiff were criticised to hell and back for their reckless spending while we didn't even try to go for it and trusted in the self interested Stapes and co.

Cardiff are still 'having a go' and averaged over 23k last season. They have never been bigger than us.

He who dares wins Rodney ! What's the worst that could happen ?

Tringreen wrote:

wiki-leaker wrote:

Freathy wrote:

125+1 wrote:

yeh true, were always getting 20k plus gates.

That's how brent wants you to think. But the crowds have stayed away because we're always being held back by outclassed, greedy, ambitionless 'boards' and 'chairmen'. If one day we actually got taken over by someone with a bit bit of class and vision and started to achieve do you really think we'd still get poxy 6k attendances? For me this just about confirms that brent and his useless 'board' are nothing more than the latest in the long line of incumbents keeping Argyle down.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
We only averaged above 15,000 in the Championship once.

I'm not sure this has much to do with James Brent.

When Holloway was manager, we were attracting 13,000ish per game.

What exactly would be the point of building a massive stadium when the demand just isn't down here? People will talk about the massive catchment area we have but that'd only ever be realised if we managed to get into the Premier League and, even then, we'd only realise this massive crowd when we played Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool. It's true that we probably have 50,000+ people interested in football in the area... but they're interested in watching Barcelona and Man Utd on Sky and not paying £20+ for a ticket to an actual real game.

Just to put this into perspective, only 8 teams last year in the Championship had an average home crowd of 20,000+
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The top 15 clubs attendance wise, with the exception of Cardiff, all have fairly recent top flight exposure. That will always be the crucial factor compared to Argyle.

Cardiff have risked everything in recent seasons and their potential support is rewarding them.

We Trusted in Stapes.

In addition, Average gates circa 20k means that on occasion larger attendances were attracted. There is absolutely no reason why Plymouth can't be as big as those top 15. It is going to take cash backed ambition and is a long way off at present, so 20k is fine for now.

Here's some reasons.

Plymouth has never had top flight football in their history. So your point is completely valid that it's a "crucial factor". In essence, you've contradicted yourself by then stating there's "no reason".

The catchment area that people talk of is purely hypothetical. There might be 500 people in Liskeard who would fit into our catchment area, there might be 1,000 in Tavistock, 200 in Launceston, 500 in Totnes etc. etc. but that doesn't mean they'd all attend regularly and, even more importantly, become season ticket holders. It's a bit of a myth in Argyle fan lore that this catchment area will ever be realised. You could argue that Bristol should be getting similar crowds to the two Liverpool clubs given the catchment area - they simply don't. I don't think it's a chicken and egg scenario as it's purely hypothetical.

Cardiff have risked everything but they're still in the Championship - I don't quite understand the comparison as it's not a model I'd want to see our club emulate. Risk everything and be the 'almost' club every season.

Tringreen wrote:

Brent has said he would look to sell to someone with the ambition to go for the Prem. I take that as meaning someone with cash backed ambition. Even a Manderic type.

A club like Argyle could be a real winner for someone clued up concerning potential.


Cardiff were criticised to hell and back for their reckless spending while we didn't even try to go for it and trusted in the self interested Stapes and co.

Cardiff are still 'having a go' and averaged over 23k last season. They have never been bigger than us.

Cardiff have certainly been bigger than us in recent seasons and historically have played in the old first division, have been FA Cup winners and have supplied numerous international players. I would say on all fronts they are bigger than us.

Cardiff have overspent for a number of years and lost £12m last year and totally owe something like £70 million and any normal trading company would probably have been liquidated by now. A lot of that debt is due to be paid soon and if they don't make the premiership this season then there could be serious repercussions for them.

What's the worst that could happen we could be playing Tiverton as our local derby!!!

Being in L2, I would have thought a fairly modest investment in players and we would start to move in the right direction in the league and that should bring in more fans. Of course the football on offer would have to be better to keep people interested.

Late 80's under Dave Smith in what was then Division 2, we challenged for a play-off spot for most of the season, and yet I seem to recall even then that crowds were only in the 12,000-15,000 range. A few games might have attracted larger gates, Pompey at home on New Years Day I think it was, we lost 3-2 after being 3-0 down.

There were also some big teams in that division then, Leeds, WBA, Derby, Sunderland etc. who all brought a decent following. I think we even had a chance of a play-off spot right up until the final game of the season.