Lesson Learned?

Grovehill wrote:

Lowe knew what the gates were and should have known what sort of fees and wages the club could afford. But has any manager ever told his chairman that they were overspending-more likely they are pestering the Board for more money just to buy that "special" player that will make all the difference-then asking again three months later.

 Lowe seems to have been determined to get certain players in over the summer without bothering to move many out. So he now has a bigger squad than most in this league and every chance of being stuck with players who are not good enough and no one will take them off his hands. Or, nearly as bad, players on 2 or 3 year contracts who won't be good enough in a higher league.

It is noticeable that very few ex Bury players moved to a higher league this summer, so presumably, were judged by most teams as not good enough to step up-even when available for nothing!

That's all conjecture Grovey but again its not Lowes responsibility to worry about gates, just to hit the clubs targets with the budget made available. I remember speaking to staff during admin including coaching staff and they did have any clue what was going on.

Their players were good enough to gain promotion and having spent time in both divisions I would say there isn't difference quality wise between lower mid table league 1 and top of league 2, perhaps they wanted to continue working with a manager they like and trust.

Spent over £1 miilion on players? At a Fourth Division Club? Don't know what was genereted in player sales but I'd be concerned if PAFC spent that much this season, even after getting half of that for Ladapo.

Biggest concern has to be that after spending all that money, Bury didn't seem to have anyone they could sell to get some money in.

Bury are considering taking legal action against the EFL for unfair expulsion

That could be interesting should they go down that route.

VillageGreen wrote:

Bury are considering taking legal action against the EFL for unfair expulsion

That could be interesting should they go down that route.

Where are Bury going to get the money from to fund a lawsuit? Besides that... They're on a hiding to nowhere.

VillageGreen wrote:

Bury are considering taking legal action against the EFL for unfair expulsion

That could be interesting should they go down that route.

Represnted by Goldbergs

Grovehill wrote:

Spent over £1 miilion on players? At a Fourth Division Club? Don't know what was genereted in player sales but I'd be concerned if PAFC spent that much this season, even after getting half of that for Ladapo.

Biggest concern has to be that after spending all that money, Bury didn't seem to have anyone they could sell to get some money in.

I read the quoted £1.2-£1.3m as the wage budget. The players he signed were all freebies and loans.

The quote in WMN was "I spent £1.2 million on 10 or 2 players"

Free transfer players on £100,000 in the fourth division?

£2k a week average ain't unreasonable, Carey was on over double that.

Grovehill wrote:

Spent over £1 miilion on players? At a Fourth Division Club? Don't know what was genereted in player sales but I'd be concerned if PAFC spent that much this season, even after getting half of that for Ladapo.

Biggest concern has to be that after spending all that money, Bury didn't seem to have anyone they could sell to get some money in.

It doesn't matter whether we spend one million or five million on players this season, the important thing is whether Hallett has the cash to fund the transfers, if he does, which it seems he does then there is no worry aboutvat all. On the other hand if he's hoping to fund one million pounds of transfers via next years pioneer memberships then were fecked. Time will tell like Bury fans and us previously we get feck all say on the running of the club we just wear no. 12.

Here's what RL said

Quote :

“I could blow you away with the figures, they were very low,” said Lowe.

“There were players on big money, which I never gave the contracts out to. Previous managers and chairmen did.

“I’ve heard players on £8-9,000 a week, never in a million years, no-one was on that type of money. Even old contracts, nowhere near.

“What was there beforehand I can’t disclose, but I spent around £1.2-£1.3m on 12-13 players and I used the best players I could that were already there.

“That’s not a lot of money. Yes, there were players there on decent enough money but that was out of my control.

“I came in as the manager and was told this is what’s to spend.”

He's clearly talking about wages and not transfer fees, plus there would've been signing on fees, whether they were from the same pot who knows.  An average £100k a year for players you hope to be in the 1st team squad doesn't seem unreasonable for a club whose aim is promotion, whether Bury could afford that was down to the owner not the manager.  No doubt Maynard would've been paid more than Telford, Maynard moved to big spending Mansfield, we signed the cheaper option.  I guess Grovey has gotten so used to Del signing crocks and players who have never kicked a ball before and he's forgotten how a normal club operates.  RL has been given a play-off budget so we're told, considerably more than Brent's 10th place budget the last time we were here and probably less than Mansfield.  It wouldn't surprise me at all if Hallett has found some additional cash previously earmarked 'professional fees' or suchlike to help fund a bigger wage budget.  After 7-8 years of the Bentmare I'm happy to just enjoy a decent start to hopefully a bright new era, if it goes belly up, well that's Argo init.

I don't think SH would be the kind of chairman to sanction a contract for someone like an Mpenza.

I don't think RL would as for that either as he's said

“I came in as the manager and was told this is what’s to spend.”

IMO
I hardly think he's gonna spunk said money up the wall on the Mpenza types or the crocks Adams signed up.

Think Bury got into financial trouble because the previous owner was bying loads of unsustainable student properties, and then loading the debt onto Bury FC. Dale took over without any reasonable plan for salvaging the situation and it was one of those situations where the debts kept escalating.

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I don't think the lesson is about managers overspending. It's about not having your football clubs owned by incompentent property developers, and also keeping close eye on any shady 're-financing' deals that are going on.

Rather than Lowe's spending (which I don't think's been too high given the players we released/sold/lost over the pre-season) what I'm concerned about is whether there might be something ugly from a financial standpoint left over from the Brent era. What really needs looking into is how the new stand has overrun massively in cost despite being a scaled-back version of the original plans. Is our financial future dependent on the stand generating X profit? Are debts from the building of the stand suddenly going to appear on the horizon?

Remember that what got Argyle into administration wasn't player spending, it was the shady financial dealings of the 'magnificent 7' or whatever they called themselves. Lots of money inexplicably swallowed up by the world cup stadium bid, to the extent that we went from a profit making club to one with £ms of debts in the space of a few years, despite barely spending any money on signing players.

Have to disagree with you a bit FTB The Stapleton board sold £6 million worth of talent after Holloway left-SEB Gosling, Norris Halmosi etc-then let PS waste it on signing players sight unseen on stupidly expensive long term contracts-MacClean & Walton alone cost £1 million and were  both on 4 year contracts at half a million a year-so those two alone effectively accounted for the £6 million raised from player sales. Add a couple more expensive flops in Mpenza and Marin and you have a club (run by an Accountant) already in trouble before the likes of Gardener (ex Man Utd PLC Chairmen) and the US/Japanese dynamic duo got involved. The Stapleton board only got that lot involved because they saw that they'd already fecked it up and needed their money

The point I've been trying to make is that most football clubs that get into trouble do so because they (usually encouraged by the supporters) start making silly (as in financially unsustainable) signings in the pursuit of success, or just to appease the fans.

Now, PAFC have appointed a manager who seems to be repeating the mistakes as Bury-signing a lot of moderate players, with little or no resale value, in the hope of instant "success" WHILE AT THE SAME TIME funding what could well be a white elephant ground redevelopment that could actually be a drain on finances rather than contributing to profit.

As for the credentials of the new Chairman/owner, he is in exactly the same position as Dan MacCauley was in his first season in charge, bankrolling an inexperienced manager in expectation of an instant bounce back from relegation-and we all know how that ended. Add in the fact that Like the Glazers at Man Utd, he's a US based investment expert and you can understand why I'm counselling a bit of caution

Earwegoagain wrote:

Grovehill wrote:

Spent over £1 miilion on players? At a Fourth Division Club? Don't know what was genereted in player sales but I'd be concerned if PAFC spent that much this season, even after getting half of that for Ladapo.

Biggest concern has to be that after spending all that money, Bury didn't seem to have anyone they could sell to get some money in.

It doesn't matter whether we spend one million or five million on players this season, the important thing is whether Hallett has the cash to fund the transfers, if he does, which it seems he does then there is no worry aboutvat all. On the other hand if he's hoping to fund one million pounds of transfers via next years pioneer memberships then were fecked. Time will tell like Bury fans and us previously we get feck all say on the running of the club we just wear no. 12.

who knows if hallett is funding the transfers out of his own pocket or it’s all Going on the debt we simply don’t know as accounts are still not forthcoming to see still ..seems we’re still guessing that it’s his money & not going on club debt

Grovehill wrote:

Have to disagree with you a bit FTB The Stapleton board sold £6 million worth of talent after Holloway left-SEB Gosling, Norris Halmosi etc-then let PS waste it on signing players sight unseen on stupidly expensive long term contracts-MacClean & Walton alone cost £1 million and were  both on 4 year contracts at half a million a year-so those two alone effectively accounted for the £6 million raised from player sales. Add a couple more expensive flops in Mpenza and Marin and you have a club (run by an Accountant) already in trouble before the likes of Gardener (ex Man Utd PLC Chairmen) and the US/Japanese dynamic duo got involved. The Stapleton board only got that lot involved because they saw that they'd already fecked it up and needed their money

The point I've been trying to make is that most football clubs that get into trouble do so because they (usually encouraged by the supporters) start making silly (as in financially unsustainable) signings in the pursuit of success, or just to appease the fans.

Now, PAFC have appointed a manager who seems to be repeating the mistakes as Bury-signing a lot of moderate players, with little or no resale value, in the hope of instant "success" WHILE AT THE SAME TIME funding what could well be a white elephant ground redevelopment that could actually be a drain on finances rather than contributing to profit.

As for the credentials of the new Chairman/owner, he is in exactly the same position as Dan MacCauley was in his first season in charge, bankrolling an inexperienced manager in expectation of an instant bounce back from relegation-and we all know how that ended. Add in the fact that Like the Glazers at Man Utd, he's a US based investment expert and you can understand why I'm counselling a bit of caution

And what's the solution Grovey? Apart from our £24 a week the club really don't give a feck about us and would no way listen to our concerns if we voiced them, never have, never will, in the meantime shaddup and enjoy the ride.

Coxside_Green wrote:

With the exception of Danny Mayor I'm not convinced the Bury contingent are on particularly high wages.  Last summer Lowe signed McFadzean from Guiseley, Aimson from Blackpool, Moore from Bristol Rovers and Telford from Stoke, all released from their previous clubs and signed for free.  

Much has been said about Bury getting promoted with a squad they couldn't afford but does anyone really know who was being paid what?  From where I'm sat it appeared Dale had no intention of paying his staff when he bought the club for a quid, he set out to do an unfunded administrators job on them and he failed.  The real damage was caused by Stewart Day when Lowe was still a player.  Trying to link Lowe to Bury's mismanagement is just pointless scaremongering.

There was a BBC North West Sports  reporter on the radio a few days ago talking about the Macclesfield FC situation. He was saying that they are probably sustainable with players on sensible wages "unlike Bury where a number of players were on £8000/week £400,000 a year"   Obviously, no one else thought these players were worth much as Bury were unable to sell to relieve their situation. Just hope none of the grossly overpaid were RLs signings & that they havent ended up at Home Park! Would be interested to know how much we are paying for Grant & Rudden who are, presumably on big (compared to Argyle) contracts at their parent clubs. Nothing against paying decent wages for decent players but paying silly money for players no one will buy if you need to sell, can kill a Club

Am curious how much Danny Mayor is on?

Grovehill wrote:

Coxside_Green wrote:

With the exception of Danny Mayor I'm not convinced the Bury contingent are on particularly high wages.  Last summer Lowe signed McFadzean from Guiseley, Aimson from Blackpool, Moore from Bristol Rovers and Telford from Stoke, all released from their previous clubs and signed for free.  

Much has been said about Bury getting promoted with a squad they couldn't afford but does anyone really know who was being paid what?  From where I'm sat it appeared Dale had no intention of paying his staff when he bought the club for a quid, he set out to do an unfunded administrators job on them and he failed.  The real damage was caused by Stewart Day when Lowe was still a player.  Trying to link Lowe to Bury's mismanagement is just pointless scaremongering.

There was a BBC North West Sports  reporter on the radio a few days ago talking about the Macclesfield FC situation. He was saying that they are probably sustainable with players on sensible wages "unlike Bury where a number of players were on £8000/week £400,000 a year"   Obviously, no one else thought these players were worth much as Bury were unable to sell to relieve their situation. Just hope none of the grossly overpaid were RLs signings & that they havent ended up at Home Park! Would be interested to know how much we are paying for Grant & Rudden who are, presumably on big (compared to Argyle) contracts at their parent clubs. Nothing against paying decent wages for decent players but paying silly money for players no one will buy if you need to sell, can kill a Club

Bigger fool Hallett if he has sanctioned big wages for Grant & Rudden, can't see it myself TBH but you never know. Personally I'm not a fan of signing kids on loan which prevent our own from getting a chance unless it's with a view to a permanent deal. That said we pretty much get the return from our youngsters our investment into the academy deserves.

Coxside_Green wrote:

Grovehill wrote:

Coxside_Green wrote:

With the exception of Danny Mayor I'm not convinced the Bury contingent are on particularly high wages.  Last summer Lowe signed McFadzean from Guiseley, Aimson from Blackpool, Moore from Bristol Rovers and Telford from Stoke, all released from their previous clubs and signed for free.  

Much has been said about Bury getting promoted with a squad they couldn't afford but does anyone really know who was being paid what?  From where I'm sat it appeared Dale had no intention of paying his staff when he bought the club for a quid, he set out to do an unfunded administrators job on them and he failed.  The real damage was caused by Stewart Day when Lowe was still a player.  Trying to link Lowe to Bury's mismanagement is just pointless scaremongering.

There was a BBC North West Sports  reporter on the radio a few days ago talking about the Macclesfield FC situation. He was saying that they are probably sustainable with players on sensible wages "unlike Bury where a number of players were on £8000/week £400,000 a year"   Obviously, no one else thought these players were worth much as Bury were unable to sell to relieve their situation. Just hope none of the grossly overpaid were RLs signings & that they havent ended up at Home Park! Would be interested to know how much we are paying for Grant & Rudden who are, presumably on big (compared to Argyle) contracts at their parent clubs. Nothing against paying decent wages for decent players but paying silly money for players no one will buy if you need to sell, can kill a Club

Bigger fool Hallett if he has sanctioned big wages for Grant & Rudden, can't see it myself TBH but you never know.  Personally I'm not a fan of signing kids on loan which prevent our own from getting a chance unless it's with a view to a permanent deal.  That said we pretty much get the return from our youngsters our investment into the academy deserves.

I cant see those being on big wages at this stage of their careers to be honest. Mayor probably is on big money and at the moment he isnt worth it.

akagreengull wrote:

Am curious how much Danny Mayor is on?

same here!! If lowes anythink to go by saying his better than Carey & lamires together could it be his way of saying his on a few quid who knows but I don’t expect it’s that far behind the reported 5k Carey was getting a week though

RegGreen wrote:

akagreengull wrote:

Am curious how much Danny Mayor is on?

same here!! If lowes anythink to go by saying his better than Carey & lamires together could it be his way of saying his on a few quid who knows but I don’t expect it’s that far behind the reported 5k Carey was getting a week though

To declare he is better than Carey and Lamerias together was up there with Ryan Taylor getting 20 goals a season for silly statements to make.

RegGreen wrote:

akagreengull wrote:

Am curious how much Danny Mayor is on?

same here!! If lowes anythink to go by saying his better than Carey & lamires together could it be his way of saying his on a few quid who knows but I don’t expect it’s that far behind the reported 5k Carey was getting a week though

To declare he is better than Carey and Lamerias together was up there with Ryan Taylor getting 20 goals a season for silly statements to make.

What cracks me up is we still have the shittest defence ever to walk (and I mean walk) the pitch at Argyle. Despite Lowe being about a million times more talented than Adams if we'd manage to hang on to Carey, Lamieris and Ladapo not bothered with the Bury players I reckon we'd be in the playoffs at least now. Most of our goals seem to be coming mainly from Sarcs and J. Grant. Adams has to take heat for signing the defence but Lowe should also for not booting their arses out at the first opportunity, as for strike forces I think Adams is way better than Lowes.