Argyle reported to FA for racism?

Unless he's allergic to fish of course. No it wasn't obvious to me hence the response. It is now. The man is clearly a racist spoofer and should be shot. No only kidding I really do get it now.

Just adding another sentence for rickler to show I'm practicing.

[quote="knecht"They were calling him a "effing Muslim c***". That is racist (and before any pedant wants to come in on that to point out it's a religion not a racial group ...... I know). In the Lindy I later heard one shout of "effing Gippo". That's racist. That isn't on. To say it has always been like that at football misses the point that things have moved on. We have learnt the effect of insult, stereotyping and marginalising groups. It's not on. Full stop.
[/quote]

That is racist and it is unacceptable ~ no denying that.

Calling a player a "g*po" because he has long hair is ridiculous not racist, but through it's use it then leads to the type of racist insult you have just illustrated. Chris Hargreaves named his recent book "Where's Your Caravan" as a riposte to the regular taunts of "g*po" he suffered for having long hair ~taunting people with long hair in that way is pathetic anyway..............most of the gypsies or travellers I come accross seem to favour ultra short hair these days for a start and one Traveller I do know of who plays in the Football League (Freddie Eastwood) happens to sport short hair and to my knowledge does not have to suffer the "g*po" taunts from the bone heads.

Complaints of racist taunting have been on these pages and the pages of PASOTI for long enough now for the Football Club to have taken action, but they have sat on their hands and done nothing.............they're going to look a bit silly if they suffer a points deduction for it which in my opinion is the only effective way to shut these idiots up once and for all ~ whichever club they support.

Trouble with deducting points is you could always get for example Spurs fans going to Arsenal and making racist chants so that Arsenal would be deducted points.

pepsipete wrote:

Trouble with deducting points is you could always get for example Spurs fans going to Arsenal and making racist chants so that Arsenal would be deducted points.

You can, but when the culprits are identified and taken to court their true identity would be uncovered. Obviously I am not saying cases like that should result in a points deduction but in football continent wide these sort of punishments are being handed out as a workable deterrent to a serious problem.

Tolerance of such naked abuse and intolerance of groups of people (whether they be travellers, those of a non Caucasian heritage or a certain sexual gender) is the fuel from which the eventual assailant of such target groups gains courage............it HAS to be eradicated and Plymouth Argyle and it's owners have the same social and community responsibilities as any other organisation charging admission money to their product. They have clearly NOT done this in the time since such occurances of abuse were first highlighted on fans forums.

Don't think there's anything new in it, but here's the Herald piece on Argyle's investigation into the anti-Gypsy chants-

Plymouth Argyle in Home Park probe over racist chant allegation .Tuesday, February 07, 2012 Plymouth Herald

PLYMOUTH Argyle are investigating allegations of anti-Gypsy chanting by fans, aimed at a Southend United player during Saturday's match.

The Pilgrims, who clawed back a 2-2 draw against the south Essex team, said they had already received reports from fans at the game who have raised concerns about chants and are expecting more to follow.

​Plymouth Argyle
.A spokesman for Argyle said: "We have received a number of complaints relating to crowd behaviour during Saturday's game.

"We are currently conducting a thorough investigation into these complaints."

Argyle say they will issue a full statement once the investigation has concluded.

The Plymouth Argyle Fans' Trust said it has also been made aware of the allegations.

The Plymouth Argyle Fans' Trust said it was "aware of a small number of incidents this season involving unacceptable and often aggressive chanting or comments."

It said it recognised the chanting "includes comments many would understand to be racist or homophobic in tone."

In a statement, the Trust said: "On Saturday an incident involving abuse coming from a supporter towards the Barn Park end of the Lyndhurst stand was reported to the police by a Trust member.

"Our message to any so-called fans who cannot put aside their own bigotry for 90 minutes is simple: you are not welcome at Home Park.

"The Fans' Trust will be approaching the club to ensure that a robust system is in place for reporting such behaviour, but in the meantime we would urge any other fans who witness it to report it, in confidence, to the club or the Trust."

However, Plymouth Argyle president Chris Webb revealed that there were two incidents at the game, the first – a religiously motivated insult at a player – resulted in an individual being ejected from the grounds.

The other, was the alleged mass anti-traveller chanting which is understood to have been aimed at French-Tunisian defender Bilel Mohsni.

A fan at the match told The Herald around 300 people were involved in the chanting.

In 2006 Southend Utd was hailed for its Romany traveller striker, Freddie Eastwood. The player was instrumental in The Seasiders beating Premiership giants Manchester United 1-0 with a stunning 30-yard free kick.

In response to the allegations, Chris said he felt there was a "lack of understanding" among some of the fans about what was acceptable chanting.

He was also keen to distance the newly formed Forza Verde 1886 organisation from any derogatory chanting.

Chris said the Forza Verde group was created in an effort to reignite the "atmosphere and passion at Home Park" with "a vibrancy and noise that has been lacking for too long."

Chris said: "At no time have or will Forza Verde support any anti-social, racist, homophobic or aggressive behaviour.

"Such behaviour is not welcome and has no place at Home Park or in wider society.

"My beliefs and values are such that it makes me sick to the pit of my stomach to imagine anyone being discriminated against for any reason."

He said the Trust would "play an active part from whatever comes out of the investigation at Home Park."

A spokesman for Southend United said the first they knew of the allegations was following contact from the press.

The spokesman said: "We understand Plymouth Argyle are carrying out an investigation. Southend United and Bilel have not made any complaints about comments made at Home Park.

"We are happy to support Plymouth Argyle in their investigation."

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Deducting points always rattles me, why should we all suffer just because of the behavior of one or two planks?

It's the same as anything these days, rather then catch and punish the culprit it's easier and often cheaper to make the majority suffer, meanwhile the culprit continues to be a dik somewhere else.

I think it would have to get a lot worse before points deductions came into the picture: as I understand it, the report's been made to Kick It Out, who would look to work with the club to make sure it doesn't happen again.

In all the pages that have been written about this (and yes, I'm adding to it) I've yet to see one saying 'yes, I joined in: I didn't realise what I was doing, but I do now and I'm sorry'. For me, that's one of the most distressing things about the whole bleddy mess.

GOB wrote:

Deducting points always rattles me, why should we all suffer just because of the behavior of one or two planks?

It's the same as anything these days, rather then catch and punish the culprit it's easier and often cheaper to make the majority suffer, meanwhile the culprit continues to be a dik somewhere else.

So you didn't ever go to a school when the teacher said, "If the culprit doesn't own up, I'll keep you all in!" or similar?

The incident in the Lindy that I was on the edges of indicated that the motivation of police & stewards was to try to ensure that their dealing with the situation didn't actually exacerbate it. That seemed to work in that situation. I'm not sure it would work in the more febrile atmosphere of the Devonport. Maybe they are using images from the cameras. Maybe, if it kicks off in the first half, all it takes is for other fans or stewards to identify the ring-leaders & deal with it more low key during the break.

GOB wrote:

Deducting points always rattles me, why should we all suffer just because of the behavior of one or two planks?

You mean like the previous board?

The YouTube evidence should also be looked at. Hearing a kid copy an adult and shout "get up you fuc**ng gyppo" is so saddening.

knecht wrote:

GOB wrote:

Deducting points always rattles me, why should we all suffer just because of the behavior of one or two planks?

It's the same as anything these days, rather then catch and punish the culprit it's easier and often cheaper to make the majority suffer, meanwhile the culprit continues to be a dik somewhere else.

So you didn't ever go to a school when the teacher said, "If the culprit doesn't own up, I'll keep you all in!" or similar?

The incident in the Lindy that I was on the edges of indicated that the motivation of police & stewards was to try to ensure that their dealing with the situation didn't actually exacerbate it. That seemed to work in that situation. I'm not sure it would work in the more febrile atmosphere of the Devonport. Maybe they are using images from the cameras. Maybe, if it kicks off in the first half, all it takes is for other fans or stewards to identify the ring-leaders & deal with it more low key during the break.

Yes and the class often had to stay behind and the culprit was left to do exactly the same thing because he was never caught.

I acknowledge that it encourages others to stand up and point a finger and that's a good thing, but unless the culprit is caught and either given an education or a punishment what has been achieved apart from shutting him up for 90 minutes. It hasn't changed his beliefs, it's just swept them under the carpet for 90 minutes.

Tim Chown wrote:

GOB wrote:

Deducting points always rattles me, why should we all suffer just because of the behavior of one or two planks?

You mean like the previous board?

The YouTube evidence should also be looked at. Hearing a kid copy an adult and shout "get up you fuc**ng gyppo" is so saddening.

By putting Mr Web choir beside the family section you are asking for trouble in the future

GOB wrote:

Deducting points always rattles me, why should we all suffer just because of the behavior of one or two planks?

It's the same as anything these days, rather then catch and punish the culprit it's easier and often cheaper to make the majority suffer, meanwhile the culprit continues to be a dik somewhere else.

Ain't that the truth !

Little things that rugby fans enjoy like a pint when watching the match are denied at football because a small % of morons would abuse the situation.

GOB wrote:

Deducting points always rattles me, why should we all suffer just because of the behavior of one or two planks?

In the early sixties Gnome Park was closed through the stupidity of ONE fan and Argyle had to use Plainmoor. Several years later Old Trafford was closed for mass indiscipline shown by what was then a troublesome bunch of fans and Argyle benefitted when Manchester United utilised the ground for their home European Cup fixture with St Etienne.

There was also another incident which I personally witnessed, when some fat bearded head case got on the pitch during a Boxing Day game with QPR and made for the referee, to my knowledge Argyle got off very lightly with that one as did Torquay United when one of their own stewards took a swing at World Cup Final referee Jack Taylor as he left the pitch. But the point that is leading to is that those light handed responses from the footballing authorities are what ultimately led to the horrific and regular occasions of football hooliganism we ALL suffered from in later years and are STILL paying the price for today with severe restrictions on what we can and cannot do in our football stadiums like being able to drink alchohol in sight of the pitch and standing up which are ALL freely allowed in Germany with the result that the crowds there for matches are much higher than in England these days.

Draconian measures to deduct points yes, but ones that eradicate the problem at the root cause ~ if the majority of "innocent" fans are so upset about them all being punished as a whole then they should be taking a mass pro-active stance of objection to this type of abuse and DEMAND that the club and it's stewards take action. If vital points were at stake I'm sure they would.

There are generally two reasons for intolerant behavior, racism being a tributary of intolerance and, there are two different methods needed to tackle those two issues.

Firstly there's intolerant behavior of the "copycat" and can often be rectified via education and no specific punishment is needed to prevent a re-occurrence, although the education maybe required over a period of time and other factors considered such as social environment etc.

Secondly there's the bigot and there's no way to rectify the belief of the bigot as it's often caused by unhappiness in the bigots personal life that requires him to attempt to reduce the contentment of the people around him to the standard of his own sad and lonely lifestyle and to justify his own discontent.

Punishing the majority will I agree, encourage others to take a stronger stand, but there's a knock on reaction to this. Whilst it may well encourage others to take a stronger stand it will also encourage a small minority to become angry with what they will perceive as an unwarranted punishment and, in turn they will be pushed towards a "bigoted" agenda, so whilst the majority will be encouraged to stand up and be counted, the minority and discontent group will grow.

This is one of the reasons why we pay taxes to have policing, the police should have the ability to rectify the situation without any large or significant impact on the majority.

How would we feel if the police called to our house one night and said "there was a burglary in your street last night, we don't know who committed it but we know it was a male and we know that it was someone that lived in your street. If he owns up or someone points the finger he'll get 12 months, if not we're taking all males living in the street and locking them up for 6 months"? - I wouldn't be all that happy and I would definitely become anti police.

I went to a great course on this issue a couple of years ago, I'll try to find any gumph regarding it online, if I can it'll be well worth a read.

Good debate!

Best post on the whole subject on Pasoti for me has been this from John Petrie, but even after this there are still people wanting to argue!





You are quite right, it is getting extremely daft.

It has been pointed out many times now that 'g*po' is a derogatory term which is derived from insulting stereotypes of an ethnic group. Is this hard to understand? It is a similar term to 'n**ger' or 'p*ki' if you'd like a bit more meat on the bones; a term used in order to insult an entire race or ethnic group. There can be no confusion in this area, it is a racial term, it is an insult based on race and therefore it is a form of racist abuse. It is not banter when hundreds of people repeatedly chant racist terms at somebody at a football match, whether he is of that ethnic group or not. It would not be acceptable to chant 'n**ger' at an extremely tanned man with tight curled hair just because he might look similar to a racial stereotype and this is exactly the same thing and is illegal.

The daftest thing about this thread is the overwhelming desire to stay rolling around in the pit of their own ignorance by some posters. It has been explained at length and repeatedly why this is racist, not just in our opinion but in the eyes of the law, but yet the same arguments come out in order to try and protect their own bigotry and it is getting utterly ridiculous. You are wrong, you have been proved to be wrong, now accept it and move on. I am 100% certain that the vast majority of those chanting this did not understand that it is racist and that, in future, when armed with a bit of knowledge they will not chant this again.

There is now a problem developing here however as the continued defence of racism as banter, in spite of their being proof that it is racist, is very worrying. Not knowing something is not something that people should be ashamed of as long as when they are presented with the proper facts they can accept it, change their attitude and move on. Continually arguing against all of the facts in order to try and protect your right to banter, here read racism, appears to point towards actually being racist and accepting that using insulting ethnic terms in football chants is okay as this particular ethnic group is beneath them and fair game for insult.

How anyone can read this and then still want to point out how stupid it all is? How can they still want to put this is the same category as calling someone a fat bastard, or still try to say it's ok because there have been much worse incidents of racism just shows how far the general Argyle fan will have to go to change their ingrained opinions.

And the fact that the whole racism thread is STILL in the Opinions section speaks volumes about Pasoti. Especially when you read the description of what topics go into the Opinions section. Again this is quoted from Pasoti itself.



Opinions.
A forum for posters to debate and voice their opinion on more general topics such as politics and the current news, etc. The only 'off limit' subjects are race, asylum or immigration. Please do not post copyrighted material without permission and acknowledgement - use a link instead. The usual Pasoti rules apply


They just have their knickers in a twist and don't know what to do!

And if anyone wonders what Dane Bunney's views on racism are:

Dane Bunney@Bunneydane1981



· Open

How is calling someone a g*po racist. feck off the lot if you PC cants. #pathetic. Football used to be a mans game.

Greenjock wrote:

And if anyone wonders what Dane Bunney's views on racism are:

Dane Bunney@Bunneydane1981



· Open

How is calling someone a g*po racist. feck off the lot if you PC cants. #pathetic. Football used to be a mans game.

And obviously some words have been altered by the swear checker, and him and IJN are still twitter buddies.

And having had a bit of time to think about what he tweeted on Sunday, this was from last night:

Dane Bunney@Bunneydane1981Reply
Retweet

Favorite
· Open

Where's ya caravan. Where's ya caravan

And this guy is a father and runs his own recruitment company in Plymouth?

Excellent.

Now we've had clear, unequivocal and strong statements from the club and the Trust, can we change the bit up top? Maybe just 'ATD condemns all forms of racism and discrimination'?

GOB wrote:

knecht wrote:

GOB wrote:

Deducting points always rattles me, why should we all suffer just because of the behavior of one or two planks?

It's the same as anything these days, rather then catch and punish the culprit it's easier and often cheaper to make the majority suffer, meanwhile the culprit continues to be a dik somewhere else.

So you didn't ever go to a school when the teacher said, "If the culprit doesn't own up, I'll keep you all in!" or similar?

The incident in the Lindy that I was on the edges of indicated that the motivation of police & stewards was to try to ensure that their dealing with the situation didn't actually exacerbate it. That seemed to work in that situation. I'm not sure it would work in the more febrile atmosphere of the Devonport. Maybe they are using images from the cameras. Maybe, if it kicks off in the first half, all it takes is for other fans or stewards to identify the ring-leaders & deal with it more low key during the break.

Yes and the class often had to stay behind and the culprit was left to do exactly the same thing because he was never caught.

I acknowledge that it encourages others to stand up and point a finger and that's a good thing, but unless the culprit is caught and either given an education or a punishment what has been achieved apart from shutting him up for 90 minutes. It hasn't changed his beliefs, it's just swept them under the carpet for 90 minutes.

Sorry. I didn't express my self very well I actually agree with you. In the section of mine you highlighted I was only trying to say that's how it has always been.

Would it be fair to say that whilst there have been 'outbreaks' of racist chanting at Home Park over the years, they have been infrequent? I certainly haven't heard much of it over the last 40 odd years.

If that is the case, does the existence of a group, Forza Verde, actually encourage this sort of chanting? As I've said before, it's the pack mentality, a couple of mindless idiots start and the rest follow.

Now, that isn't a dig at Webb's baby, but 'groups' such as the one that has been set up, can be a breeding ground for these unwanted elements. That isn't just football, it happens in society generally, football is used as a vehicle for it because of the tribal behaviour.

Whilst the group was no doubt set up with the best of intentions, it can easily be hijacked.

We have never been under investigation for racism before, we aint liverpool. lets just hope this one guy never returns to home park.

Cobi: it wasn't just one bloke, for crying out loud! One of the incidents was, but the other involved apparently hundreds of people.

Plympton: Certainly there's been a big increase in allegations lately. As I've said before, it's not anybody's fault, but I firmly believe that the formation of a group originally called the Argyle Ultras, and using some of the language and symbolism of ultras, has attracted some undesirable elements - or encouraged them to be more open in their behaviour. At least something's being done to deal with that, though.

GOB wrote:

Punishing the majority will I agree, encourage others to take a stronger stand, but there's a knock on reaction to this. Whilst it may well encourage others to take a stronger stand it will also encourage a small minority to become angry with what they will perceive as an unwarranted punishment and, in turn they will be pushed towards a "bigoted" agenda...........
This is one of the reasons why we pay taxes to have policing, the police should have the ability to rectify the situation without any large or significant impact on the majority.

That's a very good point and I respect it GOB.

But you say "the police should have the ability to rectify the situation" ~ not if the Football Club choose to save money and have their game stewarded by professionals (and having experienced some of those very same characters at Plainmoor, I use the term loosely) then the onus is on the club (as the hirers) to instruct the hired to adopt a zero tolerance policy; and this clearly hasn't been the case if people are complaining about such conduct in the crowd for several matches in succession.

I don't think it is the responsibility of an establishment who rely on retaining the licence to open their premises to eradicate racism, merely to ensure (if it is practised within their premises) that it is swiftly dealt with by ejecting the culprits and refusing to allow them back again just as any publican is required to do in order to retain their license.

Those shouting racist abuse merely need to be apprehended by the stewards, detained and then handed over to the police for criminal proceedings to be taken against them................of course there might well be a problem if the stewards are of the same mindset as the perpetrators and then there really is a huge problem to be solved, just as there has been when members of the constabulary are of that school of thought and THAT has been a problem that many people where I live and have worked with, have been fighting against for years!