Let's put another lie to bed, location.

Hitch wrote:

Very good appraisal indeed Jabba. I've always thought that the huge spectator catchment area argument is a largely false one too.

Absolutely. It's a fallacy common to fans of both our clubs, which comes from the understandable yearning to reach our respective promised lands (the Championship in our case).

It's almost easier to tell yourself that you've failed for 80-odd years solely because of perpetually useless managers/boardrooms/players and that if only we did what X and Y do all would be well, rather than accept you have particular handicaps which make achieving your goals that much more difficult than many of your rivals.

The catchment area fallacy seems to come from subconsciously considering  the population a certain distance from a football club as equivalent to the population a certain distance from an institution where attendance is compulsory or essential, like a school for example.

A school can exploit 100% of the eligible population within its catchment area without considering how logistically easy it is for members of that population to attend, how much disposable income is the norm there, or how much interest they might take in education and so on. A football club is not in that position, so crude calculations, such as considering the area containing all those for whom Anytown FC is the closest football club as some mythical catchment area ripe for exploitation are almost meaningless.

The so-called "catchment area" itself - or the number of people between clubs like ECFC or PAFC and the nearest rival club - is not as important as the quality of that catchment area (in other words the income distribution among the population , their work patterns, the level of interest in and cultural importance of football in the area and so on) and how easy that "catchment area" is to exploit (i.e it's population density, transport links and so on).

Take the example of Portsmouth - a club many of you aspire to emulate (maybe not its recent history, but you know what I mean).

While the artificial, headline population is not at first sight all that great, the more realistic figure of the continuously setted population around it  (the Urban Area) is vast. It's now been joined with the Southampton Urban Area by the ONS into one huge Metropolitan Area with a population almost equivalent to that of Devon and Cornwall combined, but even on its own the Portsmouth Urban area was probably equal to the entire population of Cornwall.

The transport links in the area are also far better than those we enjoy - it is much easier for any of  the nearest 500'000 people to Fratton Park to attend games than it is for the nearest 500'000  people to SJP, Home Park, Plainmoor, Treyew Road or Huish to do the same. While we may have better links than you to the rest of the country, our links to other parts of Devon have not escaped the historic effects of Dr Beeching and bus privatisation.

Furthermore places like Porstmouth have a far more deep-rooted  local football culture - rugby is not the same force and there is not the same influx of people from other parts of the country who bring their allegiances with them.

I don't believe that either of us are ever likely to get big increases in the numbers prepared to regularly schlep from the metropolises of Bideford, Ilfracombe, Lyme Regis, Tavistock, Launceston or Penzance and so on to watch even average Championship sides. There may be seasons where there is a bounce for one reason or another, but I doubt this could be sustained for more than a few years outside the Premier League - and if you're in the Premier League you wouldn't really need the extra revenue from larger crowds in any case.

The advocates of the "potential catchment area" theory are looking at things back to front in my opinion. The fact that football clubs are few and far between in this region, attracting consistently small to medium crowds for at least the last 40 years, is not a sign of some huge untapped potential waiting to burst forth if only we stop messing around - things are that way precisely because the far South-West is not a favourable location for a football club.

We'd all be far better off aspiring to be the best we can be, rather than chasing rainbows. If a miracle happens, then great - but demanding them as some kind of birthright, in the way some fans of both our clubs are prone to do, is futile and self-defeating.

No one at Argyle claims anything as a birthright other than tomorrow it will rain.
While I wholly disagree with the Brentophile idea that this area is not able to attract good players with the right club ambition, the catchment area thing certainly has always been a joke,  as if people are somehow akin to water.
The South West is an agrarian area, other than the King's garrison town blot on the landscape, with a penchant for rugby if anything. It's also a retirement, lay on the beach holiday/second home area with many of it's young still migrating elsewhere for half decent paid work. It is not football centric densely populated rooted industrial types trooping out of some god awful factory to cheer on the local apprentices. That's where football has sat easiest up til now. No idea how the work thing will pan out in the future, as much is changing. In fact, I'm not so sure the new emerging gig services centered stuff suits footy at all in the long run. Only tv hype is keeping it from falling off the leaderboard as desires change. There's plenty of other gladiators out there to choose from these days and corporate devilry is changing .....Johnathan ! Johnathan !.

Don't know why people are bothering to argue with this bloke. He hasn't been on here for centuries and his previous visits invariably occur when two factors are in play, namely Argyle are struggling and Exeter have won a few games. Just ignore him, he may make a merciful permanent exit.

Greenskin wrote:

Don't know why people are bothering to argue with this bloke. He hasn't been on here for centuries and his previous visits invariably occur when two factors are in play, namely Argyle are struggling and Exeter have won a few games. Just ignore him, he may make a merciful permanent exit.

LOL you tease Skinny - I've always found Jabba's contributions very often insightful and witty, well worth the read - not unlike your own on occasion!

Hitch wrote:

Greenskin wrote:

Don't know why people are bothering to argue with this bloke. He hasn't been on here for centuries and his previous visits invariably occur when two factors are in play, namely Argyle are struggling and Exeter have won a few games. Just ignore him, he may make a merciful permanent exit.

LOL you tease Skinny  - I've always found Jabba's contributions very often insightful and witty, well worth the read - not unlike your own on occasion!

Each to his own, i guess. Speaking not so personally but rather in the words of Eric Olthwaites sister-he's a boring little tit.

IMHO of course.

I often laugh at Skinny's posts too.

Greenskin wrote:

Hitch wrote:

Greenskin wrote:

Don't know why people are bothering to argue with this bloke. He hasn't been on here for centuries and his previous visits invariably occur when two factors are in play, namely Argyle are struggling and Exeter have won a few games. Just ignore him, he may make a merciful permanent exit.

LOL you tease Skinny  - I've always found Jabba's contributions very often insightful and witty, well worth the read - not unlike your own on occasion!

Each to his own, i guess. Speaking not so personally but rather in the words of Eric Olthwaites sister-he's a boring little tit.

IMHO of course.

Ripping Yarns lol.

beesrus wrote:

I often laugh at Skinny's posts too.

Would that be laugh ha ha or laugh with disdain because my opinions are sometimes rather wide of your own?

Just wonderin' like.

Just a friendly chuckle Skinny. Opinions differ. I don't often feel disdain and it would take a lot more than disagreeing about the merits of cattenaccio or whatever it's called these days.

beesrus wrote:

Just a friendly chuckle Skinny. Opinions differ. I don't often feel disdain and it would take a lot more than disagreeing about the merits of cattenaccio or whatever it's called these days.

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

jabba the gut ecfc wrote:

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

There's always players better than we have that would come here.

The difficult bit is finding them and once again that comes down to our inadequate infra-structure. There was a time when we probably all knew who our head scout was but right now I have no idea who it is or even if we have one at all.

And all it takes is one signing to get it going. Look back at the Buszaky transfer. Nobody had ever heard of him when he arrived but he came, word got around and Timar and Halmosi followed.

There must be plenty of players like them desperate to get into English football who simply don't care how far Plymouth is from Manchester or wherever.

Or we could solve the conundrum as to why our own young players get so far and no further with us.

The problem being either of those options involves actual real cash being invested and a long term plan instead of which we have 12 month contracts and no sort of plan beyond the short term at all.

Signing foreign players might be an option, but you would probably have to reach the Championship again for that to be viable. I don't think there are too many players who would relocate to a foreign country to play in Leagues 1 and 2 for the likely wages on offer that would justify the increased effort/cost of scouting abroad. I'm not sure there really are that many foreign players desperate to get into English football. If so why don't you historically see many of them at other clubs in in the lower leagues?

Of course if Brexit continues down it's present path most if not all of the players you've mentioned would find it much more difficult to get permission to play here. I suspect it's also possible that the FA would seek to reintroduce some sort of quota system if we aren't in the Single Market.

The point you make about investment in the youth system is valid. However as you say that requires short-term sacrifice, long-term planning and investment. It' took maybe 10 years for us to start seeing the full fruits of our youth policy and having the nerve to starve Tisdale of funds while unbudgeted income etc was diverted into that system, relying on him to outperform his meagre budget year after year until the system bore fruit.

Of course Brent prefers to devote those resources to property development, but on the other hand would fans be prepared to wait for that sort of strategy to pay off even if he didn't? We probably spent at least two extra years in the Conference after Tisdale's budget was cut in order to replace the Football league youth development funding. Even when we were back in the League the first-team budget was limited in order for funds to be devoted to the youth system etc. Judging by the yearning for quick success I see on your forums I'm not sure you would put up with that. After all, even some of our fans have regularly spat their dummy out and blamed Tisdale without being able to see the wood for the trees - the moronic exeweb is proof of that.

Just to pick on the youth thing for a moment.

What I am about to post will probably prove to be rather unpopular because a) it will involve the praise of James Brent and Dan McCauley and b) criticism of Ian Holloway but here goes anyway...

We did have the framework for a viable youth system. It operated very nicely for several years. It must have been instigated around 1995 because McCauley and Warnock established it and were wise enough to foresee the likely competition for resources within the club and set it up to be semi-autonomous.

As you so accurately describe fans, chairmen and managers alike will always want to see the 1st XI get the bulk of the finance and everything else can go hang. Warnock and McCauley were aware of this and set up the first Plymouth Argyle Trust (PAST & DT) in order to combat problems further down the line.

It operated well enough and long enough for a hotel/hostel it purchased to give a home to young players new to Plymouth to accrue significant value and became very asset rich. For some reason Holloway took against it and all but wound PAST & DT up by withdrawing patronage. A moribund PAST & DT sold the hotel/hostel and sat on a small fortune (which I believe it still does) which Stapleton shamelessly snaffled during the build-up to admin and which has since been paid back by the club under Brent's ownership.

God knows why Holloway took against it but there you are. We had the framework and basis for a youth system in place and Holloway trashed it.

It was a seminal moment when it comes down to it. PAST & DT was universally popular with the fans who largely funded it via donations (I even rattled a collecting tin myself for it) and even the wider general public who would happily cough up as often as not when you explained it was for Argyle's kids. It really was a proper community thing operated by the community and for the community which could see the value of what it did for both the kids concerned and the club but also for the city itself.

There was a hoo-ha at the time and many educated wankers were not exactly happy with Holloway's decision but he was bomb-proof at the time due to Argyle's on-pitch success and could do as he pleased. The Charity Commission wasn't happy either once Stapleton had fleeced the pot but it all resolved itself in the end, Brent assumed the debt post-admin and paid it off, and there's others here far better placed to give chapter and verse about that should they decide to.

I suppose given all that has happened since it is all small potatoes but you don't know what you've got until it's gone and all that. And it is gone. And it is unlikely to come back.

Hi Freaks and Weirdos, long time no speak (although I've been watching) - hope everyone's enjoying life on the good ship Argyle !!

Just wanted to answer SFDs question about the hostel and why it was closed. Holloway, like Luggy and unlike Pulis, came in and looked at every aspect of the football club. He visited the hostel, spent time talking to the people running it and the lads living in it - and the results were far from a shining example of what we would want to see. The place hardly encouraged the healthy lifestyle including the smoking and drinking habits of the man in charge. Many lads complained of a culture of bullying (too many alpha males), with the club receiving complaints from parents of lads living there. Holloway much preferred lads living in family homes and went out of his way to speak with supporters happy to have lads staying with them. What happened after the lads left the hostel was obviously down to the trustees of the Trust. So yes, Holloway preferred a different way of lads being housed but the standards at the hostel left much to be desired.

Keep up the good work - we're getting there!

PS If there's anyone who doesn't know the SEB story please just ask - never tire of talking about that one.

SEB geddon.

Damon.Lenszner wrote:

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

jabba the gut ecfc wrote:

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

There's always players better than we have that would come here.

The difficult bit is finding them and once again that comes down to our inadequate infra-structure. There was a time when we probably all knew who our head scout was but right now I have no idea who it is or even if we have one at all.

And all it takes is one signing to get it going. Look back at the Buszaky transfer. Nobody had ever heard of him when he arrived but he came, word got around and Timar and Halmosi followed.

There must be plenty of players like them desperate to get into English football who simply don't care how far Plymouth is from Manchester or wherever.

Or we could solve the conundrum as to why our own young players get so far and no further with us.

The problem being either of those options involves actual real cash being invested and a long term plan instead of which we have 12 month contracts and no sort of plan beyond the short term at all.

Signing foreign players might be an option, but you would probably have to reach the Championship again for that to be viable. I don't think there are too many players who would relocate to a foreign country to play in Leagues 1 and 2 for the likely wages on offer that would justify the increased effort/cost of scouting abroad. I'm not sure there really are that many foreign players desperate to get into English football. If so why don't you historically see many of them at other clubs in in the lower leagues?

Of course if Brexit continues down it's present path most if not all of the players you've mentioned would find it much more difficult to get permission to play here. I suspect it's also possible that the FA would seek to reintroduce some sort of quota system if we aren't in the Single Market.

The point you make about investment in the youth system is valid. However as you say that requires short-term sacrifice, long-term planning and investment. It' took maybe 10 years for us to start seeing the full fruits of our youth policy and having the nerve to starve Tisdale of funds while unbudgeted income etc was diverted into that system, relying on him to outperform his meagre budget year after year until the system bore fruit.

Of course Brent prefers to devote those resources to property development, but on the other hand would fans be prepared to wait for that sort of strategy to pay off even if he didn't? We probably spent at least two extra years in the Conference after Tisdale's budget was cut in order to replace the Football league youth development funding. Even when we were back in the League the first-team budget was limited in order for funds to be devoted to the youth system etc. Judging by the yearning for quick success I see on your forums I'm not sure you would put up with that. After all, even some of our fans have regularly spat their dummy out and blamed Tisdale without being able to see the wood for the trees - the moronic exeweb is proof of that.

Just to pick on the youth thing for a moment.

What I am about to post will probably prove to be rather unpopular because a) it will involve the praise of James Brent and Dan McCauley and b) criticism of Ian Holloway but here goes anyway...

We did have the framework for a viable youth system. It operated very nicely for several years. It must have been instigated around 1995 because McCauley and Warnock established it and were wise enough to foresee the likely competition for resources within the club and set it up to be semi-autonomous.

As you so accurately describe fans, chairmen and managers alike will always want to see the 1st XI get the bulk of the finance and everything else can go hang. Warnock and McCauley were aware of this and set up the first Plymouth Argyle Trust (PAST & DT) in order to combat problems further down the line.

It operated well enough and long enough for a hotel/hostel it purchased to give a home to young players new to Plymouth to accrue significant value and became very asset rich. For some reason Holloway took against it and all but wound PAST & DT up by withdrawing patronage. A moribund PAST & DT sold the hotel/hostel and sat on a small fortune (which I believe it still does) which Stapleton shamelessly snaffled during the build-up to admin and which has since been paid back by the club under Brent's ownership.

God knows why Holloway took against it but there you are. We had the framework and basis for a youth system in place and Holloway trashed it.

It was a seminal moment when it comes down to it. PAST & DT was universally popular with the fans who largely funded it via donations (I even rattled a collecting tin myself for it) and even the wider general public who would happily cough up as often as not when you explained it was for Argyle's kids. It really was a proper community thing operated by the community and for the community which could see the value of what it did for both the kids concerned and the club but also for the city itself.

There was a hoo-ha at the time and many educated wankers were not exactly happy with Holloway's decision but he was bomb-proof at the time due to Argyle's on-pitch success and could do as he pleased. The Charity Commission wasn't happy either once Stapleton had fleeced the pot but it all resolved itself in the end, Brent assumed the debt post-admin and paid it off, and there's others here far better placed to give chapter and verse about that should they decide to.

I suppose given all that has happened since it is all small potatoes but you don't know what you've got until it's gone and all that. And it is gone. And it is unlikely to come back.

Hi Freaks and Weirdos, long time no speak (although I've been watching) - hope everyone's enjoying life on the good ship Argyle !!

Just wanted to answer SFDs question about the hostel and why it was closed. Holloway, like Luggy and unlike Pulis, came in and looked at every aspect of the football club. He visited the hostel, spent time talking to the people running it and the lads living in it - and the results were far from a shining example of what we would want to see. The place hardly encouraged the healthy lifestyle including the smoking and drinking habits of the man in charge. Many lads complained of a culture of bullying (too many alpha males), with the club receiving complaints from parents of lads living there. Holloway much preferred lads living in family homes and went out of his way to speak with supporters happy to have lads staying with them. What happened after the lads left the hostel was obviously down to the trustees of the Trust. So yes, Holloway preferred a different way of lads being housed but the standards at the hostel left much to be desired.

Keep up the good work - we're getting there!

PS If there's anyone who doesn't know the SEB story please just ask - never tire of talking about that one.

I suppose that explains it but I still feel we lost rather more than we gained. It's a shame that a more progressive and less nuclear solution wasn't found.

As for SEB... I'm sure we're all ears.

At that time, if any Championship or lower Prem scout would have been asked who the number one young striker to sign would be, they would have all to a man said SEB. He was banging in the goals for fun in United reserves but the way they splashed the cash for strikers it was obvious he wasn't going to get the call to step up.

SEB was due to fly to London to meet with Watford (then one of the lower Premier League sides). We asked if he would fly from London down to Plymouth (Give us back our airport) to meet with us. We picked him and his agent up from the airport and went to the Barbican for lunch. Plymouth looked glorious in the summer sun and after lunch we went up to the Hoe before going to the club. SEB went off to talk football with Holloway and Michael Dunford, Phil Gill and I spoke with his agent. Watford had offered a wage we were not able to match but we offered the maximum we could and it wasn't a million miles away from that figure.

Our chief scout at the time was Penny (Gary Penrice) and he would produce a player file as thick as a pig in a boardroom. His reports told us of the player's character, eating habits, likes and dislikes as well as their strengths and weaknesses on the pitch. One thing in SEBs file really stood out - his fixation on the Number 9 shirt. It was obvious what we had to do. I went into the club shop and had printed an Argyle Ebanks-Blake 9 shirt.

When we took the player and agent back to the airport we shook hands, thanked them for coming down and I presented the number 9 shirt to SEB saying 'whatever you decide here is a momento of your trip to Plymouth'. They promised to let us know their decision the following day.

By 11pm that night Holloway was on the phone to me. He had received a call from SEB saying he wanted to join us.

So it's not all about the money, but it is all about a decent scout who really knows his target.

Fantastic story Damon and it just goes to prove that they will come if effort is made and class is shown.....unfortunately I doudt that could happen under the current regime.

Damon L

Can I reproduce that elsewhere please re SEB....??

[quote="Damon.Lenszner"][quote="Sir Francis Drake"][quote="jabba the gut ecfc"]

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

Holloway, like Luggy and unlike Pulis, came in and looked at every aspect of the football club. He visited the hostel, spent time talking to the people running it and the lads living in it - and the results were far from a shining example of what we would want to see. The place hardly encouraged the healthy lifestyle including the smoking and drinking habits of the man in charge. Many lads complained of a culture of bullying (too many alpha males), with the club receiving complaints from parents of lads living there

Ron?

He was basically Jim Royal off of The Royal Family.

harvetheslayer wrote:

Damon L

Can I reproduce that elsewhere please re SEB....??

Yep...it's no secret.

With the right people running argyle the sky's the limit, we will just have to wait for that joyful day.

can't believe there's people thinking that Ian and Chris in the directors box makes our club look anything other than professional and classy.

PatDunne wrote:

can't believe there's people thinking that Ian and Chris in the directors box makes our club look anything other than professional and classy.

How ungrateful!!!
Field Marshall Knobber, is still telling the Wor story of how st Jimmy, came across him and nine other fans sobbing about the clubs fate then reluctantly saved the day and six short years later turned argo into the fearsome football machine we have today.

Damon.Lenszner wrote:

harvetheslayer wrote:

Damon L

Can I reproduce that elsewhere please re SEB....??

Yep...it's no secret.

Thanks I'll put in on freechat with a bit of a intro and "credit" to yourself...

Pinching a striker from under the noses of Prem team - and to think just how far away we are from anything like that ever happening again.