Brent, Pasoti and the super-fans

green_genie wrote:

Bandwagon wrote:

Some conspiratorial posts up on this one - I suppose the only thing to always keep in the back of your mind is that our lord and saviour never 'plans' to lose money, therefore all angles are up for grabs. Particularly fancy the one with regards to the hike in rent and how that could tie up with the offer to buy the property at the lowest cost available if we did go up - would like to see the costings there!!

Right. Not posting on phone so able to check details.

Rent increase doesn't kick in until reach Championship (stop giggling at the back) when goes up 150% and 300% if reach Premiership.

Thanks GG, as you say good laugh that - oh well, that knocks out one theory then. Cheers

Les Miserable wrote:

PatDunne wrote:

Of course Brent wants promotion, just like we all do, however, he want's to achieve it as 'cheaply' as possible.........

I don't think it's as far fetched as some of you seem to think. There is a massive difference between going for promotion and REALLY GOING for promotion. If Jim realises that getting to league 1 will not massively benefit his bank balance and that there could be a risk of him actually having to spend a bit more then promotion push lite could easily be deployed, keep the squad good enough for us to stay away from the danger zone while at the same time keeping a fierce grip on the purse strings, if we manage to fluke promotion, well shit happens. This strategy could be instigated by one man without the need to involve others. There are many different scales of 'going for it', can anybody honestly say that this one feels like anything other than the half-hearted pound shop version?

I would agree with you here, going for promotion usually involves having more than 4 on the bench especially as Shez said pre match that he didn't rate Banton, Harvey and Thomas because they don't try hard enough?

Of course James Brent isn't going to splash huge amounts of cash on players. He doesn't have huge amounts of cash. Not so much a 'conspiracy' more 'financial reality'. Plus, just how much do you think you'd have to spend on players to get us out of this division? 100k? 200k? 500k? A million?

I thought it was common knowledge that JB doesn't have a pot to piss in? I wouldn't call that a conspiracy.

Hugh Watt wrote:

Didn't Newell say apt of teams in this league didn't want to go up. I'm pretty sure he doesn't, success brings out the plaaaastics doesn't it?

He did say that from his travels round the boardrooms that half the teams in this division didn't want promotion. If they are not 'going for it' it should of course make our task easier or conversely it makes our inability to get of this division even more abject.

Some good debate on here so far.

I think Brent wants and seeks promotion from this league, it has been mentioned that he seems to be doing it on the cheap, which is a worry.

If argyle were to go up this season, life in League One will be a tad more tougher in than that of League Two. It is highly probable that more loan signings would be needed to keep the team in that league.

I do not think he would want to keep Argyle in League Two forever [and at worse, relegation to the Conference].

Although costings would be higher in League One, revenue would also be undoubtedly higher. As SFD said, just look at the share sales of the directors after they took the club up two leagues.

I agree that Brent isn't actively ploughing his own money (as opposed to the club's funds) into this promotion push but at the same time I think the idea that he's actively trying to avoid it is so far off the mark it's unreal. Ask yourself, if an owner is looking to sell the club would he prefer to sell a League One club or a League Two club as a going concern? Which club would command a higher selling price? It's an absolute no brainer for me.

It is difficult to assess if we "are going for it" without knowing how much of the historical debt is still actively being paid off

Football creditors debt £200K/annum plus balloon payment becoming .£130K/annum to PCC
PAST&DT: £66K/annum towards £330,000 total
The unpaid staff debt outside of football creditors has been cleared thanks to GT's, but are they now being repaid?
There were one off payments to other creditors, presumably though loans from Brent. Are these still sat at the alledged £2.5M or are scheduled payments being made by PAFC.

The active £266K we know about is equivalent to ~1,000 on the gate based on £11/head over 23 games.

The average attendance being 2,700 better than 8th best, where we are told the budget sits, would allow for £680K

## Average Attendances ##

I don't doubt he wants promotion, but I do doubt that he realises how much more money a little expenditure now could actually bring in for the future.

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

Angry wrote:

green_genie wrote:

The only real reason for Brent not to want promotion is that it triggers a rent rise in the lease.

If he is planning to exercise buyback clause in Oct 2016 it would cost him.

Can't remember increase but wouldn't think it would cost as much as would come in through promotion

AstiSpumante wrote:

So it seems promotion to L1 might not be such a mouthwatering prospect for B Rent after all, the plot thickens

Completely agreed and well argued. Both of you.

No it isn't.

We've seen exactly how the value of the club and the turnover and everything increases as we rise up through the leagues during the Sturrock mk I era and exactly how the opposite happens during the slump that led to admin.

How much did Messrs Gill, Foot, Jones & co sell up for again? How much did they pay to buy in?

For heaven's sake this isn't even in dispute! It's all on the record somewhere.

The don't-want-to-go-up hypothesis is at best irrational and deeply and fundamentally flawed.

This is debatable Shirley. All the rise up the leagues proved is the club could build debt and move money around between the money-makers. The real grafters lost circa £12m which ended up in the pockets of many who probably didn't deserve it.

Some of those whom bought out MaCauley bought in for a relative pittance yet were paying £hundreds of £thousands for their peers shares a couple of short years later. I've no idea how that became possible. It's also worth bearing in mind the club wasn't heavily laden with debt back then either.

So on to Brent and his totally different MO. It was initially about property development whereby keeping us shit with lower crowds could justify his shit proposals. Now I suspect it's all about reducing the debt to somehow try and make the club look worth more on paper. I don't see how promotion at this moment in time would help.

I would love to know how "sustainably" the club is and has been run, without the fans being included in this we will never know and whilst this is still happening there is no way I want to be part of the farce that "belonging" to this club has become.

According to others Brent has loaned the club £2m+. I'd love to know how much of this was from his own resources or how much of this was just not his money but paper notes moved around. Just a question of course, no need for legal attacks.

There is little doubt that Brent (whether personally or through his company - which is much the same thing) is subsidising the club again this season - something he said he wasn't going to do beyond last season.

That's what makes me think he does indeed wants and needs to be promoted. It also concerns me that he might get fed up (next season?) and leave the club to bum shuffle along on what ever income it can bring in itself. If it comes to that point it would need a massive alignment of the stars with a very good manager making a silk purse of a sows ear of a squad made up of journeyman freebie and kids to get us out of this division anytime soon.

Brents at Argyle to make money out of its assets, quite how i dont know because he seems rather clueless on the Development front. Still he's chosen his club wisely because a good many argyle fans are truly gullible and beaten down by years of failure, thats why they need to believe he's bothered what happens on the pitch, he still shits on them still like the previous shysters, but is very pleasant about it.

Promotion this season would see many players out of contract at the end of next season.  All ripe for sale for 'compensation' reasons.  Obviously all demanding higher wages.  Where exactly does the income increase?  Given our debt we can no longer borrow and hide it under 'other charges'  like before.

It'll take either someone with loadsa money and a real love for Argyle or a monied businessman to take us forward.  Other than that, start again and kick the debts to where they belong (I've certainly no sympathy for ex players who contributed to relegation, nor greedy or incompetent owners)

our form this season does little to suggest promotion regardless of wether or not 'wants it'

Well we all enjoy a good conspiracy theory, but I think the current form is due mainly to the fact that the squad (still) is'nt good enough and general ineptness of management and the board. Even IF we achieve promotion as a longstanding fan I have no belief in Brent or the board to back Sheridan or whoever the manger is to keep us there.
Argyle has it's fair share of hanger oner's and wannabies but it is probably no worse than the majority of clubs currently. Hard to believe in an owner who states publicly time and again that he was a reluctant bidder, is'nt qualified to run a football club and has so far developed feck all. Will be glad to see the back of Brent when the time comes, we can only hope for Argyle to fall into safer hands.
BRENT OUT.

Elias wrote:

our form this season does little to suggest promotion regardless of wether or not 'wants it'

The point that I was getting at was that 'our form' and Brent's long term intent are entwined.
Why would Brent want a team in the play-offs getting 9-10 k home supporters through the gates every other week? It would make his case for a meager 17k capacity look ridiculous.
No.............keep the team shit in the long haul and folk will eventually get round to his form of thinking.
The bloke is a locust and his supporters should be flogged.

GreenSam wrote:

Although costings would be higher in League One, revenue would also be undoubtedly higher. As SFD said, just look at the share sales of the directors after they took the club up two leagues.

I agree that Brent isn't actively ploughing his own money (as opposed to the club's funds) into this promotion push but at the same time I think the idea that he's actively trying to avoid it is so far off the mark it's unreal. Ask yourself, if an owner is looking to sell the club would he prefer to sell a League One club or a League Two club as a going concern? Which club would command a higher selling price? It's an absolute no brainer for me.

As a Championship Club with no debt and recognised as one of the best financially run clubs in all the Leagues, the value of the Club was £3 million. How can Mr B possibly believe that as a 4th Division Club with shitloads of debt the Club is worth £2.25 million?

Aren't there certain rules about 'funding' the club? What sort of money can be used for what sort of purpose etc?

Damon.Lenszner wrote:

GreenSam wrote:

Although costings would be higher in League One, revenue would also be undoubtedly higher. As SFD said, just look at the share sales of the directors after they took the club up two leagues.

I agree that Brent isn't actively ploughing his own money (as opposed to the club's funds) into this promotion push but at the same time I think the idea that he's actively trying to avoid it is so far off the mark it's unreal. Ask yourself, if an owner is looking to sell the club would he prefer to sell a League One club or a League Two club as a going concern? Which club would command a higher selling price? It's an absolute no brainer for me.

As a Championship Club with no debt and recognised as one of the best financially run clubs in all the Leagues, the value of the Club was £3 million. How can Mr B possibly believe that as a 4th Division Club with shitloads of debt the Club is worth £2.25 million?

I wouldn't disagree with that valuation of £3m whilst in the Championship. But just how did Stapleton manage to con the Japanese into paying almost that sum for just 20%? And then expect them to kick in more when the shit hit the fan financially?

Damon.Lenszner wrote:

GreenSam wrote:

Although costings would be higher in League One, revenue would also be undoubtedly higher. As SFD said, just look at the share sales of the directors after they took the club up two leagues.

I agree that Brent isn't actively ploughing his own money (as opposed to the club's funds) into this promotion push but at the same time I think the idea that he's actively trying to avoid it is so far off the mark it's unreal. Ask yourself, if an owner is looking to sell the club would he prefer to sell a League One club or a League Two club as a going concern? Which club would command a higher selling price? It's an absolute no brainer for me.

As a Championship Club with no debt and recognised as one of the best financially run clubs in all the Leagues, the value of the Club was £3 million. How can Mr B possibly believe that as a 4th Division Club with shitloads of debt the Club is worth £2.25 million?

Lolzzz That wasn't the reality. 20% for £2m and 'demonstrable' add-ons. Kagami was proper ripped off.

Damon.Lenszner wrote:

GreenSam wrote:

Although costings would be higher in League One, revenue would also be undoubtedly higher. As SFD said, just look at the share sales of the directors after they took the club up two leagues.

I agree that Brent isn't actively ploughing his own money (as opposed to the club's funds) into this promotion push but at the same time I think the idea that he's actively trying to avoid it is so far off the mark it's unreal. Ask yourself, if an owner is looking to sell the club would he prefer to sell a League One club or a League Two club as a going concern? Which club would command a higher selling price? It's an absolute no brainer for me.

As a Championship Club with no debt and recognised as one of the best financially run clubs in all the Leagues, the value of the Club was £3 million. How can Mr B possibly believe that as a 4th Division Club with shitloads of debt the Club is worth £2.25 million?

Well you tell me but a third division club would be worth more than a 4th division one which is why I don't believe the theory one bit.

Hitch wrote:

Damon.Lenszner wrote:

GreenSam wrote:

Although costings would be higher in League One, revenue would also be undoubtedly higher. As SFD said, just look at the share sales of the directors after they took the club up two leagues.

I agree that Brent isn't actively ploughing his own money (as opposed to the club's funds) into this promotion push but at the same time I think the idea that he's actively trying to avoid it is so far off the mark it's unreal. Ask yourself, if an owner is looking to sell the club would he prefer to sell a League One club or a League Two club as a going concern? Which club would command a higher selling price? It's an absolute no brainer for me.

As a Championship Club with no debt and recognised as one of the best financially run clubs in all the Leagues, the value of the Club was £3 million. How can Mr B possibly believe that as a 4th Division Club with shitloads of debt the Club is worth £2.25 million?

I wouldn't disagree with that valuation of £3m whilst in the Championship. But just how did Stapleton manage to con the Japanese into paying almost that sum for just 20%? And then expect them to kick in more when the shit hit the fan financially?

I think it is widely appreciated that Kagami knew nothing about football. He looked at a Balance Sheet which had been boosted with the cash from the sale of a number of players and agreed a valuation based on that Balance Sheet. No due diligence, no idea. More money than sense, a bit like the person Mr B now seeks.

So, in your considered opinion Damon, did the Stapleton, Dennerley, Gill, etc Board of Directors set out to sell half the team with the intention of cashing in on the healthy bank balance?

As I recall, the club was solvent before the fire sale.

Rollo Tomasi wrote:

So, in your considered opinion Damon, did the Stapleton, Dennerley, Gill, etc Board of Directors set out to sell half the team with the intention of cashing in on the healthy bank balance?

As I recall, the club was solvent before the fire sale.

Should never have bought the stadium they might have been solvent for a little bit longer.