Celtic and their fans.

Booing through the minute silence at Aberdeen.
No poppy on their shirts ,feckin disgraceful club.
What moron at that club though it was in the clubs interest not to have them.

No clubs wore them until recently, and now they're apparently part of the dress code.

Booing the minute's silence is indefensible, but considering the damage the British Army did in Northern Ireland - see James McClean's admirable letter to Dave Whelan the other day - you can see why Celtic decided not to.

It seems like showing off the poppy, or buying one so big it seems like it's been nicked off the front of a truck, is more important than actually giving money to the RBL and remembering.

What we are honouring here are British soldiers (men and women) who lost their lives doing their duty. Whether it is Northern Ireland or the Somme it is the people who laid down their lives we are remembering. They had no say in whether the policies of the war they were fighting were good or bad the vast majority just did as they were told.

Maybe next year we can have two different poppies one with a bar underneath saying excluding Northern Ireland.

James McClean's letter is nowhere near admirable in my book and as for Celtic football club they are a f....ing disgrace.

Personally I find the clamour to wear a poppy, and demand others to do so as well, a bit unedifying.

Nothing against the poppy itself - I have siblings in the forces and my grandfathers both served in the Navy too (I also have black friends and aint no racialist).

Is it more disrespectful to force a poppy on people who don't particularly want to wear it, or to refuse to wear it? It's all a bit pointless full stop.

The big distinction is to separate everyday folk who don't wear one for no particular reason (90% of the population??), from those who choose not to wear one due to political or nationalist views.

The latter can go hang.

The owner of Zeus restaurant's son made some unsavoury comments regarding Remembrance Day which seems to have reflected on his parent's restaurant (it seems he is the dick-head, but I don't see why the restaurant should come under attack). The Herald story probably doesn't help-

http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/Attack-Plymouth-restaurant-man-slates-Remembrance/story-24507113-detail/story.html

Cornish Chris wrote:

No clubs wore them until recently, and now they're apparently part of the dress code.

Booing the minute's silence is indefensible, but considering the damage the British Army did in Northern Ireland - see James McClean's admirable letter to Dave Whelan the other day - you can see why Celtic decided not to.

It seems like showing off the poppy, or buying one so big it seems like it's been nicked off the front of a truck, is more important than actually giving money to the RBL and remembering.

One of those subjects where I wouldn't try to convince anyone from the beliefs they hold. As it happens I'm more in line with Chris's views.

Mock Cuncher wrote:

Personally I find the clamour to wear a poppy, and demand others to do so as well, a bit unedifying.

Nothing against the poppy itself - I have siblings in the forces and my grandfathers both served in the Navy too (I also have black friends and aint no racialist).

Is it more disrespectful to force a poppy on people who don't particularly want to wear it, or to refuse to wear it? It's all a bit pointless full stop.

That's not the issue here is it ?Its about a football club being disrespectful to hundreds of thousands who lost there lives.
Celtic lost 7 players during WW1

The almost countless unfortunate thousands who have died did so defending this country and our values. It could be argued that they died so that we might be free. For me that freedom includes an individual's right to either wear a poppy or not as they see fit with no repercussions either way as a result.

Booing during a minute of silence is horribly disrespectful no matter how you look at it but rather than just castigating those who acted that way it might be more productive to stop for a moment and consider why somebody might feel inclined to act so.

Maybe the only way forward is to try to build a few bridges rather than to reinforce the prejudices which will only deepen the divide and lead to even more ill-feeling on both sides?

The poppy is a potent symbol and tradition and as such is an easy and viable target for those wishing to enhance their own political ego by either insisting on it being worn or making protests against it.

Cornish Chris wrote:

...considering the damage the British Army did in Northern Ireland - see James McClean's admirable letter to Dave Whelan the other day - you can see why Celtic decided not to.

The British Army did a lot more damage in places like India. Didn't hear any Indians booing the silence though, at football matches or anywhere else come to that.

Over 200,000 Irishmen served in the British Army during WW1, almost 30,000 were killed. All were volunteers (Britain did not introduce conscription in Ireland due to the delicate political situation). I dare say a significant proportion of those who served, or were killed or injured were nationalists and that an equally significant proportion were fans of football.

It is possible, I suppose, that those Celtic fans doing the booing are simply twats who are ignorant of "their own" (lol) history.

downthetrack wrote:

Booing through the minute silence at Aberdeen.
No poppy on their shirts ,feckin disgraceful club.
What moron at that club though it was  in the clubs interest not to have them.

utter cvnts their fans are.

Theres not wearing a poppy which is a personal choice then theres that total lack of respect shown by their fans. Celtic the club do onate to the RBL it should be noted.

Maybe the Scottish Prem should look at not having them play football on Remembrance Day in the future.

mouldyoldgoat wrote:

Maybe the Scottish Prem should look at not having them play football on Remembrance Day in the future.

Wouldnt work Mouldy as the Celtic fans will just wait till the nearest home game to put up their banners like this from a few years ago...

"Your deeds would shame all the devils in hell. Ireland Iraq Afghanistan. No bloostained poppy on our hoops.[sic] nb i took the pic down as it was too big.

Celtic the club should be cracking down on this green brigade more rather than caving in when it tries due to mob threats from them.

Angry wrote:

mouldyoldgoat wrote:

Maybe the Scottish Prem should look at not having them play football on Remembrance Day in the future.

Wouldnt work Mouldy as the Celtic fans will just wait till the nearest home game to put up their banners like this from a few years ago...

"Your deeds would shame all the devils in hell. Ireland Iraq Afghanistan. No bloostained poppy on our hoops.[sic] nb i took the pic down as it was too big.

Celtic the club should be cracking down on this green brigade more rather than caving in when it tries due to mob threats from them.

I agree Angry, as much as it is hurtful to those who have lost loved ones at least it wouldn't been done on such an important day for them and this country.

Disgraceful club. They've always hated everything about the UK anyway, if you want to see a patriotic bunch go to Ibrox.

Josh Pope wrote:

Disgraceful club. They've always hated everything about the UK anyway, if you want to see a patriotic bunch go to Ibrox.

I hate both clubs equally as both profited from the troubles fanning hate on both sides. They wouldnt be as big as the are now if it wasn't for the war in n.ireland.

bjorn_yesterday wrote:

Cornish Chris wrote:

...considering the damage the British Army did in Northern Ireland - see James McClean's admirable letter to Dave Whelan the other day - you can see why Celtic decided not to.

The British Army did a lot more damage in places like India. Didn't hear any Indians booing the silence though, at football matches or anywhere else come to that.

Over 200,000 Irishmen served in the British Army during WW1, almost 30,000 were killed. All were volunteers (Britain did not introduce conscription in Ireland due to the delicate political situation). I dare say a significant proportion of those who served, or were killed or injured were nationalists and that an equally significant proportion were fans of football.

It is possible, I suppose, that those Celtic fans doing the booing are simply twats who are ignorant of "their own" (lol) history.

I just want to pick this point up and run with it a little...

It could be argued that, in an Irish context, the advent of WW1 came at a very fortuitous time for the British government led by Liberal Herbert Asquith which was very keen to grant Ireland Home Rule. The Ulster protestants were dead set against the idea and the British Army, based at the time in what is now a famous racecourse, basically mutinied at the Curragh.

This was all accompanied by massive escalation in stock-piling arms as the IRA and the newly formed Ulster Volunteers who were itching to blow each other to bits and a full-on Civil War was all but inevitable. The British Army was never going to attack the northern protestants and as a result completely lost any confidence the Irish catholics might have had in them at the time. I seem to recall that Germany was covertly supporting both sides in the belief that the ensuing mess would distract the attention of the British government from what they were up to in Europe...

Luckily (!) WW1 started and many of those lined up to fight on either side ended up dying in the European rather than Irish trenches and it all kind of fizzled out.

The British Army in Ireland was never again as dominant and the Curragh Mutiny probably enabled, it certainly indirectly encouraged, the Easter Rising which in turn eventually led to the establishment of the Irish Republic.

It was all a huge can or worms not sorted to universal approval to this very day.

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

bjorn_yesterday wrote:

Cornish Chris wrote:

...considering the damage the British Army did in Northern Ireland - see James McClean's admirable letter to Dave Whelan the other day - you can see why Celtic decided not to.

The British Army did a lot more damage in places like India. Didn't hear any Indians booing the silence though, at football matches or anywhere else come to that.

Over 200,000 Irishmen served in the British Army during WW1, almost 30,000 were killed. All were volunteers (Britain did not introduce conscription in Ireland due to the delicate political situation). I dare say a significant proportion of those who served, or were killed or injured were nationalists and that an equally significant proportion were fans of football.

It is possible, I suppose, that those Celtic fans doing the booing are simply twats who are ignorant of "their own" (lol) history.

I just want to pick this point up and run with it a little...

It could be argued that, in an Irish context, the advent of WW1 came at a very fortuitous time for the British government led by Liberal Herbert Asquith which was very keen to grant Ireland Home Rule. The Ulster protestants were dead set against the idea and the British Army, based at the time in what is now a famous racecourse, basically mutinied at the Curragh.

This was all accompanied by massive escalation in stock-piling arms as the IRA and the newly formed Ulster Volunteers who were itching to blow each other to bits and a full-on Civil War was all but inevitable. The British Army was never going to attack the northern protestants and as a result completely lost any confidence the Irish catholics might have had in them at the time. I seem to recall that Germany was covertly supporting both sides in the belief that the ensuing mess would distract the attention of the British government from what they were up to in Europe...

Luckily (!) WW1 started and many of those lined up to fight on either side ended up dying in the European rather than Irish trenches and it all kind of fizzled out.

The British Army in Ireland was never again as dominant and the Curragh Mutiny probably enabled, it certainly indirectly encouraged, the Easter Rising which in turn eventually led to the establishment of the Irish Republic.

It was all a huge can or worms not sorted to universal approval to this very day.

Home Rule was as controversial in England as it was in Northern Ireland. The Germans knew this and did everything they could to undermine the Asquith/Lloyd George/Churchill axis and contribute to division in the run up to WWI. As you say, this involved whispering sweet nothings to the Ulster Unionists and the IRA at the same time,giving both camps the sense of a strong bargaining position, embittering the conflict and undermining the Liberal government (which at the time required support from the 80 or so Irish MPs due to a hung parliament!). The Tories which were disgusted at the idea of Home Rule, really used the Liberal party's inability to deliver solid progress in Ireland as a stick to beat them with, even though they themselves didn't want developments.

I can understand James McClean's position particularly due to the events of Bloody Sunday, and the British military seemingly hijacking Armistice Day to now mean Remembrance Day and make sure the Poppy is symbolic of every foreign intervention ever committed by the British government - the Falklands, Iraq, Afghanistan too. For the majority of British people, the poppy represents WW1, and the two minute's silence is specifically in memory of the fallen in that conflict. To boo the minutes silence in the 21st Century given that understanding, takes an exceptionally bigoted mindset IMO - I just will never understand what drives these people to continually do it, to boo the memory of millions of dead soldiers who died to protect the future generations of the country?

Josh Pope wrote:

Disgraceful club. They've always hated everything about the UK anyway, if you want to see a patriotic bunch go to Ibrox.

Celtic is a patriotic club, it's just that their allegiance certainly doesn't lie with England or GB and sadly they take every opportunity available to make that abundantly clear.

There's obviously huge agreement between myself and EJH on the historical facts here.

Where we diverge is in a difference of understanding concerning the lasting symbolism.

Exactly what it is that makes the poppy such a strong symbol defines the almost religious reverence bestowed upon it in some circles and the rejection in others. The reasons why we find it so offensive when it is disrespected are exactly the same reasons latched onto by those who disrespect it.

The sooner that we recognise that deaths are mourned equally on both sides of a conflict makes lasting resolution of that conflict eventually accessible.

I buy a poppy or two and contribute in various ways each year but I don't do so with any sense of jingoistic fervour or nationalistic celebration but more in a sense that so many men just like me, and I am very aware that I come from a lucky generation where I have not been placed where they were, were killed and maimed, particularly in a WW1 context, for so little purpose.

A few years ago it was blokes just like me who were sent to France or who knows where with consequences that I can hardly bear to think about but the actions of our armed forces have not always been quite as unequivocally for the good as we might prefer to believe and it could be considered courageous to take a stance as obviously extreme as disrupting a Remembrance ceremony to to remind us of that.

And I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing.