No Evolution in League 2

I've read many posts (on both sites) saying that we need to get rid of X and Y and then build the team with 5 or 6 signings. Unfortunately these days teams in league 2 do not evolve over 2-3 seasons due to the length of contracts and the "not fit for purpose" loan system.

A long term contract in L2 is 18 months to 2 years, most are season to season or even 6 months. Most teams are left with 8 or so full time professionals on 30th June.

Southend have qualified for the play offs using an average of 4.7 loan players per league game. 35% or so of their team are not employed by the club. One gets injured and guess what? They send the player back to their parent club and get another loanee.

If I were a well connected football manager who was skilled in building a league two team and the way that needs to look and play I could take Bristol Rovers and put them in the play offs next season (should they stay up). Rochdale and Keith Hill?

It is not enough to simply look at a team who say fail in the play offs and say they are favourites for promotion...Northampton anyone?

The loanee system is in my opinion a cause of this. Why develop your own youth players or offer someone a 3 year contract when you can simply borrow nearly half your team? This stems from the "land grabbing" of talented children by teams in the Premiership. I don't know what the answer is for this....cap on professionals?

Anyway the result of this is that you need a manager who knows what it takes to build a team at this level (Sturrock MK 1 was perfect) in terms of pace, strength, physicality, systems, set pieces etc. as well as someone who can motivate, sell the club and have good contacts within the game.

Sheridan should have the latter but I'm not sure if he knows how to build, set up a team, change an approach mid game and his motivation skills are yet to be proven.

What I do know is that it is not certain that Reid will stay and given that we're left with bare bones and an uncertain budget. We need someone who can make a silk purse.

League 2 promotion is very open. The modern day parlance is to call football clubs a "project". In league two this is a rolling 12 month project. Whether that is right or wrong, and I don't like it, it is the way it is. Do we have the structure to take advantage of it I doubt as well.

Dick Trickle wrote:

I've read many posts (on both sites) saying that we need to get rid of X and Y and then build the team with 5 or 6 signings. Unfortunately these days teams in league 2 do not evolve over 2-3 seasons due to the length of contracts and the "not fit for purpose" loan system.

A long term contract in L2 is 18 months to 2 years, most are season to season or even 6 months. Most teams are left with 8 or so full time professionals on 30th June.

Southend have qualified for the play offs using an average of 4.7 loan players per league game. 35% or so of their team are not employed by the club. One gets injured and guess what? They send the player back to their parent club and get another loanee.

If I were a well connected football manager who was skilled in building a league two team and the way that needs to look and play I could take Bristol Rovers and put them in the play offs next season (should they stay up). Rochdale and Keith Hill?

It is not enough to simply look at a team who say fail in the play offs and say they are favourites for promotion...Northampton anyone?

The loanee system is in my opinion a cause of this. Why develop your own youth players or offer someone a 3 year contract when you can simply borrow nearly half your team? This stems from the "land grabbing" of talented children by teams in the Premiership. I don't know what the answer is for this....cap on professionals?

Anyway the result of this is that you need a manager who knows what it takes to build a team at this level (Sturrock MK 1 was perfect) in terms of pace, strength, physicality, systems, set pieces etc. as well as someone who can motivate, sell the club and have good contacts within the game.

Sheridan should have the latter but I'm not sure if he knows how to build, set up a team, change an approach mid game and his motivation skills are yet to be proven.

What I do know is that it is not certain that Reid will stay and given that we're left with bare bones and an uncertain budget. We need someone who can make a silk purse.

League 2 promotion is very open. The modern day parlance is to call football clubs a "project". In league two this is a rolling 12 month project. Whether that is right or wrong, and I don't like it, it is the way it is. Do we have the structure to take advantage of it I doubt as well.

  

Sorry to quote the whole of it. I know it's messy but whatever ......

Re Reuben Reid - I thought today that, as Yeovil are relegated, maybe they will think twice about getting shot of him. I noticed in the recent Herald article that he was quoted (and I paraphrase) as saying something like "I'd love to stay at Argyle next season but it depends on who comes in for me." Talk about keeping your options open! I guess it all comes down to salary & how far you have to move & maybe uproot a family. In spite of the reservations of some - including Sturrock - 20 goals in a season is pretty convincing.

I've never gone for the mantra of 'Brent needs to open his/the club's wallet'. We are where we are and Argyle's policy of signing players is probably little different to those around us. Whether we 'belong' here is irrelevant.

I have been saying for some years that the Premier league will be the death of the smaller clubs. Now they are too powerful for the Football League to challenge meaningfully. The best we can hope for is to wait until the money-men tire of their toys (or cease to make money out of it  ) . Alternatively we can look forward to the reality of the big clubs operating a nursery system or even operating a reserve league in the lower divisions. At least that would make clear the relationship that to a degree exists already.

knecht wrote:

Dick Trickle wrote:

I've read many posts (on both sites) saying that we need to get rid of X and Y and then build the team with 5 or 6 signings. Unfortunately these days teams in league 2 do not evolve over 2-3 seasons due to the length of contracts and the "not fit for purpose" loan system.

A long term contract in L2 is 18 months to 2 years, most are season to season or even 6 months. Most teams are left with 8 or so full time professionals on 30th June.

Southend have qualified for the play offs using an average of 4.7 loan players per league game. 35% or so of their team are not employed by the club. One gets injured and guess what? They send the player back to their parent club and get another loanee.

If I were a well connected football manager who was skilled in building a league two team and the way that needs to look and play I could take Bristol Rovers and put them in the play offs next season (should they stay up). Rochdale and Keith Hill?

It is not enough to simply look at a team who say fail in the play offs and say they are favourites for promotion...Northampton anyone?

The loanee system is in my opinion a cause of this. Why develop your own youth players or offer someone a 3 year contract when you can simply borrow nearly half your team? This stems from the "land grabbing" of talented children by teams in the Premiership. I don't know what the answer is for this....cap on professionals?

Anyway the result of this is that you need a manager who knows what it takes to build a team at this level (Sturrock MK 1 was perfect) in terms of pace, strength, physicality, systems, set pieces etc. as well as someone who can motivate, sell the club and have good contacts within the game.

Sheridan should have the latter but I'm not sure if he knows how to build, set up a team, change an approach mid game and his motivation skills are yet to be proven.

What I do know is that it is not certain that Reid will stay and given that we're left with bare bones and an uncertain budget. We need someone who can make a silk purse.

League 2 promotion is very open. The modern day parlance is to call football clubs a "project". In league two this is a rolling 12 month project. Whether that is right or wrong, and I don't like it, it is the way it is. Do we have the structure to take advantage of it I doubt as well.

  

Sorry to quote the whole of it. I know it's messy but whatever ......

Re Reuben Reid - I thought today that, as Yeovil are relegated, maybe they will think twice about getting shot of him. I noticed in the recent Herald article that he was quoted (and I paraphrase) as saying something like "I'd love to stay at Argyle next season but it depends on who comes in for me." Talk about keeping your options open! I guess it all comes down to salary & how far you have to move & maybe uproot a family. In spite of the reservations of some - including Sturrock - 20 goals in a season is pretty convincing.

I've never gone for the mantra of 'Brent needs to open his/the club's wallet'. We are where we are and Argyle's policy of signing players is probably little different to those around us. Whether we 'belong' here is irrelevant.

I have been saying for some years that the Premier league will be the death of the smaller clubs. Now they are too powerful for the Football League to challenge meaningfully. The best we can hope for is to wait until the money-men tire of their toys (or cease to make money out of it  ) . Alternatively we can look forward to the reality of the big clubs operating a nursery system or even operating a reserve league in the lower divisions. At least that would make clear the relationship that to a degree exists already.

Mon plaisir.Saw the quote as your signature and thought "bleddy plagiarist" originally but thanks for your thanks.Think you and DT are a trifle negative about Argyle's prospects though.A quick glance at the CCC table shows Bournemouth in 9th position,admittedly with their play off chances gone,but very creditable none the less and surely a pointer as to what could be done by Argyle with a bit of momentum and money without becoming a nursery club for the big clubs or any other rather doomy outcome? Mr Sheridan is often accused of presenting a negative profile but in a programme interview today,he was asked if Argyle could become a championship club again-response was "definitely".He would seem to regard Argyle as something other than a small club,a view which i share.Bristol Rovers and Brentford would not build brand new 20000 capacity stadia with a long term aim of being nursery clubs,surely? I don't see any reason why Argyle should not be very appealing attraction in this division for decent players on decent contracts if the rewards were right-as a matter of interest,how many loan players did Scunthorpe or Chesterfield use this season?

he was hardly going to answer NO was he !!!! ?

with brent we're going nowhere. brent out.

any club can advane through the divisions, it just needs money either minimal or huge amounts.

Mr Greenskin.

I won't quote the whole thread as it does annoy people but you've chosen the wrong club.

Bournemouth have a great manager, one of the best, who I happen to know, albeit on the periphary amongst a circle of friends. He is positive, hands on, communicative with the press and one who knows every detail on the training ground - seen first hand.

He also happens to be living well beyond his means. Bournemouth are no blueprint for a lower league club. They are a Chelsea, albeit in miniature.

They have a capacity of just over 10k and charge prices in line with Argyle. For £6 a year an under 8 can get a ticket to a home game (any home game!) free of charge if they attend with a season ticket holder (adult). The club is accessible, friendly and a joy to attend.

In 2012 they spent over £800,000 on Matt Tubbs and given the above their record signing is over £3.5 million and they entertained Real Madrid last August, Ronaldo and all. Why?

Because they are owned by a Russian who has an £8,000,000 UK holiday home in Sandbanks.

Bournemouth are not a credible example to use against the original argument. Next?

Dick Trickle wrote:

Mr Greenskin.

I won't quote the whole thread as it does annoy people but you've chosen the wrong club.

Bournemouth have a great manager, one of the best, who I happen to know, albeit on the periphary amongst a circle of friends. He is positive, hands on, communicative with the press and one who knows every detail on the training ground - seen first hand.

He also happens to be living well beyond his means. Bournemouth are no blueprint for a lower league club. They are a Chelsea, albeit in miniature.

They have a capacity of just over 10k and charge prices in line with Argyle. For £6 a year an under 8 can get a ticket to a home game (any home game!) free of charge if they attend with a season ticket holder (adult). The club is accessible, friendly and a joy to attend.

In 2012 they spent over £800,000 on Matt Tubbs and given the above their record signing is over £3.5 million and they entertained Real Madrid last August, Ronaldo and all. Why?

Because they are owned by a Russian who has an £8,000,000 UK holiday home in Sandbanks.

Bournemouth are not a credible example to use against the original argument. Next?

Brentford.

Greenskin wrote:

........
........Mr Sheridan is often accused of presenting a negative profile but in a programme interview today,he was asked if Argyle could become a championship club again-response was "definitely".He would seem to regard Argyle as something other than a small club,a view which i share.Bristol Rovers and Brentford would not build brand new 20000 capacity stadia with a long term aim of being nursery clubs,surely? .......

I've been told that Sheridan got the job after initially presenting poorly in interview because he then stated forcibly & passionately that Argyle should not be in the bottom division - Argyle are too big a club for that.

As for the issue of nursery clubs, I assume that the better the provision the more attractive they become to the bigger clubs. It may not become formalised - though it may - but the reality is that lots of young players are farmed out to the smaller clubs to gain experience already. It isn't much of a leap for that to become even more established. Even if they don't become nursery clubs per se, the loan system may increasingly lead to clubs in the bottom divisions be abused by the system the bigger clubs enforce.

I saw that line on pasoti & I thought "I'm having that though I will credit it" .... and then I realised the name of the poster. Takes a genius to deliver that line as well as posting successfully on both sites!

Greenskin wrote:

Dick Trickle wrote:

Mr Greenskin.

I won't quote the whole thread as it does annoy people but you've chosen the wrong club.

Bournemouth have a great manager, one of the best, who I happen to know, albeit on the periphary amongst a circle of friends. He is positive, hands on, communicative with the press and one who knows every detail on the training ground - seen first hand.

He also happens to be living well beyond his means. Bournemouth are no blueprint for a lower league club. They are a Chelsea, albeit in miniature.

They have a capacity of just over 10k and charge prices in line with Argyle. For £6 a year an under 8 can get a ticket to a home game (any home game!) free of charge if they attend with a season ticket holder (adult). The club is accessible, friendly and a joy to attend.

In 2012 they spent over £800,000 on Matt Tubbs and given the above their record signing is over £3.5 million and they entertained Real Madrid last August, Ronaldo and all. Why?

Because they are owned by a Russian who has an £8,000,000 UK holiday home in Sandbanks.

Bournemouth are not a credible example to use against the original argument. Next?

Brentford.

Indeed Brentford.

My original post I believe highlighted the importance of Managers.

Me wrote:

Anyway the result of this is that you need a manager who knows what it takes to build a team at this level (Sturrock MK 1 was perfect) in terms of pace, strength, physicality, systems, set pieces etc. as well as someone who can motivate, sell the club and have good contacts within the game.

Brentford - Uwe Rosler - the same Uwe Rosler that through his repeated analysis of the opposition steered Wigan to defeat over Man City and was incredibly respected at Brentford. He has turned Wigan from a mid table club into a play off position after guiding Brentford to the play offs.

His successor, having worked alongside the likes of Brendan Rogers, Sean Dyche and Malcolm Mackay has sinced taken Brentford to the CCC.

If you ain't got money and you ain't got the manager you're no-one.

I think our Manager does not have the tactical knowledge, management skills, natural leadership or ability to change mid-game that other teams have. I wouldn't trust him with another season.

simple really, sign lavery & bryan on season long loans then find another 2-3 decent players and promotion is assured   

as for sheridan, he wont be at home park this time next year.

knecht wrote:

Greenskin wrote:

........
........Mr Sheridan is often accused of presenting a negative profile but in a programme interview today,he was asked if Argyle could become a championship club again-response was "definitely".He would seem to regard Argyle as something other than a small club,a view which i share.Bristol Rovers and Brentford would not build brand new 20000 capacity stadia with a long term aim of being nursery clubs,surely? .......

I've been told that Sheridan got the job after initially presenting poorly in interview because he then stated forcibly & passionately that Argyle should not be in the bottom division - Argyle are too big a club for that.

As for the issue of nursery clubs, I assume that the better the provision the more attractive they become to the bigger clubs. It may not become formalised - though it may - but the reality is that lots of young players are farmed out to the smaller clubs to gain experience already. It isn't much of a leap for that to become even more established. Even if they don't become nursery clubs per se, the loan system may increasingly lead to clubs in the bottom divisions be abused by the system the bigger clubs enforce.

I saw that line on pasoti & I thought "I'm having that though I will credit it" .... and then I realised the name of the poster. Takes a genius to deliver that line as well as posting successfully on both sites!

   

No doubt about it..  People worth reading about Argyle on the internet at any given moment...  Greenskin is always near, if not the top of the list!

Along with a several others on ATD (and one or two on the farm).

Interestingly two things from yesterday. Jack Barmby scored Hartlepool's equaliser after scoring the winner last week to secure Hartlepool's league status. He's on loan from Man Utd. I'll wager now that he'll never score for Man Utd. In addition Showunmi played against Hartlepool for the third time this season yesterday via three different clubs, all on loan.

Dick Trickle wrote:

In addition Showunmi played against Hartlepool for the third time this season yesterday via three different clubs, all on loan.

I'm assuming he was utter gash for all three.