£1.2m tax bill ?

Any truth in rumour club has this tax bill to pay by start of next season ?

Elias wrote:

Any truth in rumour club has this tax bill to pay by start of next season ?

Very much doubt it. After admin the Football League monitor this very closely not to mention HMRC.

I'm sure that we will have a tax bill hitch. With Bretonside cash rich development looming maybe it's time for Brent to pass the keys to Guilfoyle and feck off with his pension pot and deeds to the asset stripped Lands in each pocket. It's only a matter of time, that's why I feel missing promotion this season will come back to haunt us.

Iggy wrote:

I'm sure that we will have a tax bill hitch. With Bretonside cash rich development looming maybe it's time for Brent to pass the keys to Guilfoyle and feck off with his pension pot and deeds to the asset stripped Lands in each pocket. It's only a matter of time, that's why I feel missing promotion this season will come back to haunt us.

What tax though Iggy? VAT and NI have to be paid on time by the club every month and will surely have been. There's certainly no corporation tax. Whatelse is there?

I don't know but it was always the inland revenue bill that we were struggling with pre admin. I always thought that it was player and staff wages. Why do we have to pay monthly? Is it special conditions due to admin?

If we have a £1.2m HMRC bill we need to know how it breaks down because it could include any number of different taxes with income tax, NI and VAT leading the way.

I don't think it can be NI and income tax due to the hawklike surveillance the club's finances are being subjected to and we probably pay very little tax as a loss-making business.

So it must be VAT. Which is payable at 20%. If 20% is £1.2m then 100% is £6m. At turnover of of about £3.8m per annum that'd mean we'd not paid out VAT bill at all for 2 years.

Which seems unlikely to me.

Without more detail to work with I call bullshit on this.

Perhaps some of the promised honesty, openness, transparency and engagement with fans, would put minds at rest and speculation to bed ?

I don't think he even tells his jamboys anything and they certainly have provided a protective ring around the find gentleman because he knows best and more importantly, allows them to play with the train set.   
I include Iddlesleigh and the rest of the board in the 'jamboys'.

You are wrong on the income tax SFD. Players are paid lets say £1000 a week. They will lose let's say £200 in income tax, that has nothing to do with Argyle being a loss making business the club have to pay it to HMRC as PAYE. I still would have thought that £200k would cover that for a year though.

Do we know from accounts how much staff wages are?
(I very much doubt it).

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

So it must be VAT. Which is payable at 20%. If 20% is £1.2m then 100% is £6m. At turnover of of about £3.8m per annum that'd mean we'd not paid out VAT bill at all for 2 years.

Which seems unlikely to me.

Without more detail to work with I call bullshit on this.

Classic piece of work there Franny, describe the issue as bull poo while throwing some pretty disingenuous workings out there.

Football club financing is heavily front loaded with its major annual vat liability relating to ST sales, Football League payments and sponsorship deals, this would all fall due well before Xmas, unless footy clubs have a special arrangement to allow them to account for ST income over the season. With your rep HMRC would not allow you to get away with much so you can assume the bulk is not vat, although you will have a fair lump to pay after your recent cup final, an extra 7,000 visitors and plassies at a score a lump including pasty sales would generate a vat bill of around £22k, good news of course was that you wouldn't be paying out any win bonuses.

ps. A £1.2 vat liability does not imply a T/O of 6 Bar, vat on an output liability of 6 Bar would be £1 mill, there would be a degree of input relief although admittedly not that much, football clubs are a great cash cow for HMRC, which would inflate the necessary turnover to create a £1.2M vat liability to summat over £8 mill.

It would be far more likely that greater proportion of any accrued tax liability would relate to income tax and NI contributions, I doubt that any of your donkeys fall into the £160+K pa bracket so a ball park figure of around 40% of your total wage bill and 18% of total income would be about your annual tax liability. The back of my fag packet suggests that figure would be in the range £1.5 mill to £2 mill, the Akkeron nonsense would suggest that Harry P is the kind of slippery fecker who would pay his bills as the bailiff was walking in through the door so an outstanding liability of £1.2 million is not totally out of the (Hoof) ballpark imho.

Iggy wrote:

You are wrong on the income tax SFD. Players are paid lets say £1000 a week. They will lose let's say £200 in income tax, that has nothing to do with Argyle being a loss making business the club have to pay it to HMRC as PAYE. I still would have thought that £200k would cover that for a year though.

No, no, no Iggster, now that's not how it works, is it?

A pile a week attracts far more tax than that.

Income tax is 20% but only on income from the tax allowance, just short of £10k to just over £40k, it then jumps to 40%, hear my fecking kids moan when they get their pay slips.

NI is even worse, 12% employee contribution plus 13.8% employer, that's nearly a quarter of the gross wage bill, mucho casho, although the employee portion does fall to 2% on income which attracts the higher rate of income tax.

Your total wage bill will not be far short of £2 million, ours isn't, the Income tax and NI bill on that will be pretty close to £800k plus over £320k in vat on the income needed to make the payments.

Smoke and mirrors me old mucker.

Er, I should add that some of the figures I have used re rates and allowances might be a bit out of date cos I don't pay much attention nowadays, they will not be far off base though.

Iggy wrote:

Why do we have to pay monthly? Is it special conditions due to admin?

No, most small businesses with PAYE employees have to account and pay monthly.

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

If we have a £1.2m HMRC bill we need to know how it breaks down because it could include any number of different taxes with income tax, NI and VAT leading the way.

I don't think it can be NI and income tax due to the hawklike surveillance the club's finances are being subjected to and we probably pay very little tax as a loss-making business.

So it must be VAT. Which is payable at 20%. If 20% is £1.2m then 100% is £6m. At turnover of of about £3.8m per annum that'd mean we'd not paid out VAT bill at all for 2 years.

Which seems unlikely to me.

Without more detail to work with I call bullshit on this.

I think you have answered your own question. Back in 2012 the 72 clubs voted to give the Football League written authority to closely monitor each club's compliance with their financial obligations to HMRC. In addition they adopted the 55% SCMP for League 2 (the salary cap) It enables the Football League to have an early warning system if clubs are failing to meet their obligations and liabilities. For players and staff wages that is 13.8% combined PAYE and NI employers contribution payments. These are to be paid monthly. Failure to do so will be a sanction of a transfer embargo including emergency loan additions to the squad (Most pertinent today of course with a 5.00pm deadline in place).

The other obligation is payment of VAT. Most companies do this quarterly so a large unpaid VAT bill would soon attract the attention of the Football League, even more so for us as we are under even further scrutiny to ensure that we meet our agreement with the League that allowed restoration of the 'Football League Share' and repayment of the Football Creditor debt on an agreed basis over five years including a balloon payment by October 2016. That balloon payment, with another 27 months to go, continues to be reduced by the payment of 50% of unbudgeted income.

It's good to witness this debate and the information provided by various contributors.

What I find amazing but not unsurprising, is the fact that since one of the co owners of Pasoti announced that he was no longer going to discuss anything but the actual football, such topics have simply disappeared off the farm radar.

The million dollar question is do we owe the revenue? A classic example of how the lack of communication between club owner and fans just feeds the insatiable appetite of the rumour mill.

Graham Clark wrote:

That balloon payment, with another 27 months to go, continues to be reduced by the payment of 50% of unbudgeted income.

How much do you think will have been knocked off the lump from the proceeds of Tuesday night's Cup Final?

31 PENCE EXACTLY

Lord Tisdale wrote:

Graham Clark wrote:

That balloon payment, with another 27 months to go, continues to be reduced by the payment of 50% of unbudgeted income.

How much do you think will have been knocked off the lump from the proceeds of Tuesday night's Cup Final?

Normally unbudgeted income derives from extended cup runs with increased (shared gate income), prize money and additional income from food / drink etc.. We played 7 cup games and probably budgeted for 3. The other source is player sales and above budget commercial income

Our League attendances are averaging 7,331 this season which is about 3% more than last year with the possible prospect of larger attendances in the last three home games dependent on our play off hopes.

In answer to your question the additional income above budget would be more conditional on the on-the-night expenditure on food/drink/programmes etc. rather than a specific one night increase in attendance.

Play off hopes ????????? Unlikely now i would say

Minus the rather large cost of the massed ranks of Devon & Cornwall's finest, clad in riot protection gear. The five dog handlers and dogs. The force helicopter and mounted Police probably from South Wales. I seem to remember JB saying the Police cost for the JPT game was £30,000.

That sounds more like a Russian invasion force!

Funny, I thought that when 25-30 riot gear clad coppers walked down the front of the Lyndhurst early in the second half. They didn't watch much of the game..... must have thought it was crap as well.

In days gone by the budget was calculated on league games only - with attendances of each game estimated before the season started. Each and every cup game was a
bonus.

Just to add I can't for one moment believe this rumour.