Where is all the money going ?

A question posed by Oddball over the road, which has surprisingly not yet been removed.

Oddball wrote:

so where is all the matchday revenue from the second highest home attendances in the division going.the high earners have all gone....who's milking the funds...

Even allowing for the often quoted 2K off gates to fund the legacy debt our attendances still rank 6th in League Two.
Since administration it is clear the club has been run on a shoestring so why on earth do we reportedly need loans from Brent to stay afloat & now require urgent substantial input from Wrathall ?

Mastpoint/ticketus/ the debts which most other clubs clear after exiting administration.

Would that not be included in the 2K figure that reportedly goes from every gate to fund debts Hugh ?

feck knows

The money cannot be going on players' wages because of the 55% SCMP.

It hasn't been going on Rates because we have been 100% exempt for the first 2 years and 50% exempt since.

I realise that doesn't answer the question.

How much has the planning for HHP cost the club?

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

The money cannot be going on players' wages because of the 55% SCMP.

It hasn't been going on Rates because we have been 100% exempt for the first 2 years and 50% exempt since.

I realise that doesn't answer the question.

How much has the planning for HHP cost the club?

Absolutely zilch I would hope, as it's an exclusive Akkeron/Brent deal. Although as he owns both he can easily rob Peter I suppose.

Hitch wrote:

Absolutely zilch I would hope, as it's an exclusive Akkeron/Brent deal. Although as he owns both he can easily rob Peter I suppose.

Like he was / is doing with the additional parcel of land needed for the hotel (?) PAFC to pay an additional 30k in rent to PCC for a piece of land that will be nothing to do with them.

the PASB need to be finding this out as a matter of urgency the fact that BRENT seems to have sold his 'soul to the devil' especially how raw admin still is, is of the UPMOST concern.

The PASB don't give a feck, only there for the sausage rolls and to sneer.

I'm surprised you don't know.
It obviously goes to the directors as why would someone like Brent who has no interest in football suddenly become the custodian of a club.
Its the same reason why so many foreign business persons with no idea about football or its traditions have suddenly become directors of football clubs.

Pafcintheplace wrote:

The PASB don't give a feck, only there for the sausage rolls and to sneer.

If they walked in on a board meeting they would whistle stranger in paradise rather than football related questions.

This question seems to pop up alot.

[i] dont think people realise the expense involved in running a club.

The 55% cap is for playing staff. average income a fortnight based on 4000 crowds (2000 taken off for debt) is roughly 75-80k

We have 23 players registered to the first team averaging over 1k a week each thats around 50k a fortnight roughly

Then the wages of the administration, managers and coaches, all academy full time staff, transport, utilitie bills, CEO, Bonuses im pretty certain that remaining money would be eaten up pretty quickly even with advertising and sponsorship.

Its easy to say where's it going, but people dont do the simple things and try and have a realistic breakdown.

My figures are only rough figures, i know for a fact that there are a few players closer to 2k a week. Ive seen people do estimations on players saleries before and it was laughable. People really think that Lewis Allesandro will relocate for 600 quid a week!.

Running a football club is a costly business, over 85% of clubs in the football league post losses year on year unless they are propped up by some millionaires money.

Brent has loaned the club 2 million already as we are all aware, but we have to remember he is the reluctant bidder, so he is only gonna put so much in.

If Argyle cleared all debt during administration we would be very well off and posting a profit. But we didnt, we are still in serious debt.

Thats where the money is

mcfry wrote:

I'm surprised you don't know.
It obviously goes to the directors as why would someone like Brent who has no interest in football suddenly become the custodian of a club.
Its the same reason why so many foreign business persons with no idea about football or its traditions have suddenly become directors of football clubs.

Thats where you are completely wrong. Most owner/directors dont draw salaries from the club, if anything they make money from interest rates in loaning money to the club.

You think Abramovich pays himself a salarie at Chelsea!

125, our turnover is £3.8million - our wage bill (if at max 55%) is £2 million.

We had no business rates to pay for the past two years and half rates this year.

Our rent is less than £200k pa.

Football Creditor debt is £200k p.a.

Old Trust debt is £60k p.a.

Club received £900k profit from sale of ground to Council and £400k from sale of car park

JB has loaned the club £2 million.

Cash is pissing away somewhere.

Damon.Lenszner wrote:

125, our turnover is £3.8million - our wage bill (if at max 55%) is £2 million.

We had no business rates to pay for the past two years and half rates this year.

Our rent is less than £200k pa.

Football Creditor debt is £200k p.a.

Old Trust debt is £60k p.a.

Club received £900k profit from sale of ground to Council and £400k from sale of car park

JB has loaned the club £2 million.

Cash is pissing away somewhere.

Our playing wage bill is 55% Damon. like i said the manager,CEO all coaching staff, Academy staff, administration staff doesnt come into that and id thought you would know that being a former member of the board, even though the Cap came in after you left.

What about Transport cost and hotels when required by all teams down to youth level?
Gas/ Electric Bills?

Also it is easy to get around the 55% cap, so that wage cost isnt set in stone. I believe a way around this listening to a few chairman on talk sport a while ago, was though bonus payments which are not deemed part of the salarie cap.

You honestly think Crawley and Rotherham won promotion when paying large fee's for players based on thier attendances and 55% cap? NO

Being a former board member you will know more about the weekly/monthly outgoings, or i hope you do.

Taken from notes posted on pasoti of the meeting with Martyn Starnes held in Launceston during the week. The poster said it was 'taken from memory & scribbled notes'.

"Finances
- The current/recent restructuring of some of Akkeron's hotel portfolio is not linked to Argyle's finances.
- Club still has to pay off an administration legacy debt of £3m over the 5 year period agreed with the Football League at the end of administration. Payments to creditors continue to remain on schedule and must be completed by the end of the 5 year period.
- Club is still paying the same business rates as it was when the club was in the Championship.
- John Sheridan is comfortable with his current budget.
- 50% of any transfer revenue that Argyle generate is kept by the Football League to pay off Argyle's creditors.
- Argyle's annual turnover is £3.8m (by comparison, Walsall's turnover is £5m because they have an entertainment complex in their stand, get income from a regular Sunday market and advertsing revenue from their hoardings facing the M6.)
- Promotion to League 1 would increase turnover to over £4m. Championship football would incease turnover significantly (Yeovil's turnover doubled to £7m when they were promoted to the Championship.)
- PAFC revenues have been improving year on year since 2011 and it is an improving situation."

125, our wage bill was slashed through tge administration process and subsequent rounds of redundancies. You would be very surprised at how low the coaching staff salaries are. The CEO salary I can have a pretty good guess at but not really fairto publish my guess but lets say that on its own is not going to break the bank. Of course we have light heat telephone insurances, audit fees, travel I know what goes into the expense column in a P & L account. However none of that should come closes to losing the amounts we apparently are.

In terms of breaking the salary cap, Mr Brent was adamant we would not do it, and the Football League are extremely tight on watching clubs that have exited administration.

You are right tho, I do have a reasonable handle on what our expenses are. We should not be losing the amount of money we are.

Surely if the board were to publish accounts then good or bad the fans would know and could make a judgement, with the dearth of information from the club then speculation will become fact, sad but true. In my opinion if you want a united fanbase then treating the fans with a little less contempt would be a start.

125+1 wrote:

Damon.Lenszner wrote:

125, our turnover is £3.8million - our wage bill (if at max 55%) is £2 million.

We had no business rates to pay for the past two years and half rates this year.

Our rent is less than £200k pa.

Football Creditor debt is £200k p.a.

Old Trust debt is £60k p.a.

Club received £900k profit from sale of ground to Council and £400k from sale of car park

JB has loaned the club £2 million.

Cash is pissing away somewhere.

Our playing wage bill is 55% Damon.  like i said the manager,CEO all coaching staff, Academy staff, administration staff doesnt come into that and id thought you would know that being a former member of the board, even though the Cap came in after you left.  

What about Transport cost and hotels when required by all teams down to youth level?
Gas/ Electric Bills?

Also it is easy to get around the 55% cap, so that wage cost isnt set in stone.  I believe a way around this listening to a few chairman on talk sport a while ago, was though bonus payments which are not deemed part of the salarie cap.  

You honestly think Crawley and Rotherham won promotion when paying large fee's for players based on thier attendances and 55% cap? NO

Being a former board member you will know more about the weekly/monthly outgoings, or i hope you do.  

could you make anymore excuses if you tried? what about the price of milk and bread these days? surely thats affecting the millionaire brent's pocket too.  

125+1 wrote:

mcfry wrote:

I'm surprised you don't know.
It obviously goes to the directors as why would someone like Brent who has no interest in football suddenly become the custodian of a club.
Its the same reason why so many foreign business persons with no idea about football or its traditions have suddenly become directors of football clubs.

Thats where you are completely wrong.  Most owner/directors dont draw salaries from the club, if anything they make money from interest rates in loaning money to the club.

You think Abramovich pays himself a salarie at Chelsea!

So you really think that these business men with no love of football that operate within this cooperate country do so just for the hell of it? It appears that you are the one who is completely wrong.
Football clubs, if not making money for their owners are just used for laundering, which again brings me back to the significant amount of foreign interest.
As for Abramovich paying himself a salary, he doesn't need to as he is a billionaire but not all owners ( I prefer custodians) are that fortunate. It has been mentioned ( or rumoured) that Stapleton was withdrawing a salary. Plus it is not just about a salary, do you really think they pay out of their own pocket for the travel, accommodation, hospitality and admission when they attend games?

Angry wrote:

125+1 wrote:

Damon.Lenszner wrote:

125, our turnover is £3.8million - our wage bill (if at max 55%) is £2 million.

We had no business rates to pay for the past two years and half rates this year.

Our rent is less than £200k pa.

Football Creditor debt is £200k p.a.

Old Trust debt is £60k p.a.

Club received £900k profit from sale of ground to Council and £400k from sale of car park

JB has loaned the club £2 million.

Cash is pissing away somewhere.

Our playing wage bill is 55% Damon.  like i said the manager,CEO all coaching staff, Academy staff, administration staff doesnt come into that and id thought you would know that being a former member of the board, even though the Cap came in after you left.  

What about Transport cost and hotels when required by all teams down to youth level?
Gas/ Electric Bills?

Also it is easy to get around the 55% cap, so that wage cost isnt set in stone.  I believe a way around this listening to a few chairman on talk sport a while ago, was though bonus payments which are not deemed part of the salarie cap.  

You honestly think Crawley and Rotherham won promotion when paying large fee's for players based on thier attendances and 55% cap? NO

Being a former board member you will know more about the weekly/monthly outgoings, or i hope you do.  

could you make anymore excuses if you tried? what about the price of milk and bread these days?  surely thats affecting the millionaire brent's pocket too.  

Thats where you get lost Angry. Any one that works with a balance sheet calls these expenditure not excuses. You live in a fantasy world where there is no cost associated with running a business other than paying a salary.

And another thing you dont seem to understand is our expenditure shouldnt be affecting Brents millions, he might be the owner, but that doesnt mean he has to bleed cash to keep the club going. Brent is not that wealthy at all, he has alot of assets, but they are no good when you need cash and you dont want to borrow against one or your assets.

The most worrying thing is we are struggling for cash now. What happens JUNE until AUG when there is no gate income. If we have to rely on season ticket sales we could be completly stuffed as they are clearly being used already.

I wonder how much argyle money has been spent on the plans and associated workings that will not directly benefit argyle ultimately?

I presume this is where the money drain is SFD!?

Man wearing 2hats makes things much confuscious.

All the Presidents Men wrote:

I wonder how much argyle money has been spent on the plans and associated workings that will not directly benefit argyle ultimately?

I presume this is where the money drain is SFD!?

Man wearing 2hats makes things much confuscious.

The "development costs" in the planning for the ill fated world cup bid came to about £600k which,added to the the £3m mortgage [only partially paid off] from Lombard for the purchase of the freehold,formed a not inconsiderable portion of the expenditure/liabilities that put the club in trouble in the first place.I can't imagine that planning or architects fees have gone down since that time,very difficult to know exact details though,considering the scant accounting information that is released by the club.

125+1 wrote:

Angry wrote:

125+1 wrote:

Damon.Lenszner wrote:

125, our turnover is £3.8million - our wage bill (if at max 55%) is £2 million.

We had no business rates to pay for the past two years and half rates this year.

Our rent is less than £200k pa.

Football Creditor debt is £200k p.a.

Old Trust debt is £60k p.a.

Club received £900k profit from sale of ground to Council and £400k from sale of car park

JB has loaned the club £2 million.

Cash is pissing away somewhere.

Our playing wage bill is 55% Damon.  like i said the manager,CEO all coaching staff, Academy staff, administration staff doesnt come into that and id thought you would know that being a former member of the board, even though the Cap came in after you left.  

What about Transport cost and hotels when required by all teams down to youth level?
Gas/ Electric Bills?

Also it is easy to get around the 55% cap, so that wage cost isnt set in stone.  I believe a way around this listening to a few chairman on talk sport a while ago, was though bonus payments which are not deemed part of the salarie cap.  

You honestly think Crawley and Rotherham won promotion when paying large fee's for players based on thier attendances and 55% cap? NO

Being a former board member you will know more about the weekly/monthly outgoings, or i hope you do.  

could you make anymore excuses if you tried? what about the price of milk and bread these days?  surely thats affecting the millionaire brent's pocket too.  

Thats where you get lost Angry.  Any one that works with a balance sheet calls these expenditure not excuses.  You live in a fantasy world where there is no cost associated with running a business other than paying a salary.

And another thing you dont seem to understand is our expenditure shouldnt be affecting Brents millions, he might be the owner, but that doesnt mean he has to bleed cash to keep the club going.  Brent is not that wealthy at all, he has alot of assets, but they are no good when you need cash and you dont want to borrow against one or your assets.

The most worrying thing is we are struggling for cash now.  What happens JUNE until AUG when there is no gate income.  If we have to rely on season ticket sales we could be completly stuffed as they are clearly being used already.

Surely that would be where good budgeting enters the equation?

Greenskin wrote:

All the Presidents Men wrote:

I wonder how much argyle money has been spent on the plans and associated workings that will not directly benefit argyle ultimately?

I presume this is where the money drain is SFD!?

Man wearing 2hats makes things much confuscious.

The "development costs" in the planning for the ill fated world cup bid came to about £600k which,added to the the £3m mortgage [only partially paid off] from Lombard for the purchase of the freehold,formed a not inconsiderable portion of the expenditure/liabilities that put the club in trouble in the first place.I can't imagine that planning or architects fees have gone down since that time,very difficult to know exact details though,considering the scant accounting information that is released by the club.

y

Exactly, it's probably a given that these are more advanced and detailed than Todd's back of a fag packet drawings and sums, I suspect this is where Brent's 1.6 - 2 million ( can't they count?) has gone to the club!

I suppose it is perfectly conceivable these figures could be used / massaged in the accounts as a lever to slash next seasons budget, whereas it is perfectly probable that without all these extra costs to the club we are/should be running well within actual playing budget without all HHP add ons?

Thank god we had Brent give us xthrobbers promise of transparency blah blah, where would we have been without it?