The rise and rise of German football

Bayern crushed Barcelona 4-0 last night, Dortmund crushing Real Madrid 4-1 at the moment.

German national team always a potent force.

And with FFP on the doorstep, the signs are ominous for the Premier League and England.

You would have thought that with the billions of Sky money over decades that more world class English players would have come to the fore.

I remember being based in Germany and paying the equivalent of 10 pounds in todays money to stand on a terrace and watch Borussia Dortmund play in one of the best leagues in Europe..says it all really

Not really Gert. Firstly all this tippy tappy crap that teams like Barca come out with is only good for a short period. Teams learn to deal with it and if they have no end product it becomes sterile and worthless. It's almost as if it is keep ball and only keep ball with them and they have forgotten you have to score.

The other side of the coin is the type of training young kids get in this country. The emphasis is on work rate hence the big strapping lads being prefered. What they don't teach is ball skills at an early age in my opinion. I watched a large group of young kids on a beach in Spain last year who were doing some training. These were around the 9/10 age group. The biggest stand out was that they were all comfortable with the ball at their feet and not once did I see any of them just lump it up the beach and chase after it. They could run with the ball and pass it. I've watched youngsters over here and most of them couldn't do either very well and what's more weren#t being encouraged to either. We are light years behind in training techniques.

4 years ago we were saying the same about England as Chelsea, Utd, even Liverpool and Arsenal were regularly in finals/semis.

2 years ago it became Spain's turn, now the Germans.

Gert Loinz wrote:

Bayern crushed Barcelona 4-0 last night, Dortmund crushing Real Madrid 4-1 at the moment.

German national team always a potent force.

And with FFP on the doorstep, the signs are ominous for the Premier League and England.

You would have thought that with the billions of Sky money over decades that more world class English players would have come to the fore.

Truth to tell,i've always thought exactly the opposite.Clubs don't give a shit about producing players for the England team,just how much cash they make out of the champions league.How many players have Manchester United,Chelsea and Arsenal produced for the England team in the past 10 years? Wilshere,Gibbs,Wellbeck,Cleverley,a few others but amounting to just a handful.People like Wenger and Ferguson are in pursuit of their own glory and career-while they can pick up the best players ready made to go into their first teams,they aren't going to prioritise the allocation of money to the production of young English players.Big problem,needs intervention at government level IMHO,but it won't happen and England stand no chance of winning a world cup again in my lifetime.

Sensiblegreeny wrote:

Not really Gert. Firstly all this tippy tappy crap that teams like Barca come out with is only good for a short period. Teams learn to deal with it and if they have no end product it becomes sterile and worthless. It's almost as if it is keep ball and only keep ball with them and they have forgotten you have to score.

The other side of the coin is the type of training young kids get in this country. The emphasis is on work rate hence the big strapping lads being prefered. What they don't teach is ball skills at an early age in my opinion. I watched a large group of young kids on a beach in Spain last year who were doing some training. These were around the 9/10 age group. The biggest stand out was that they were all comfortable with the ball at their feet and not once did I see any of them just lump it up the beach and chase after it. They could run with the ball and pass it. I've watched youngsters over here and most of them couldn't do either very well and what's more weren#t being encouraged to either. We are light years behind in training techniques.

That would be the Barcelona who have won the champions league 3 times in the last 7 years,would it? Not a bad "short period of success" as far as i'm concerned, perhaps you have stricter criteria for defining a long period of success.And i suppose it's worth pointing out that their defeat to Bayern occurred at the semi final stage,which is further than any British club seems to have managed. I don't really understand what you're saying here.Firstly you say that Barcelona have tippy tap crapped their way to the success enjoyed over the past how ever many aons,then criticise British techniques for not encouraging young players to control and pass the ball and relying on physical power instead.I happen to agree with you on that point but would argue that the success of Barcelona and Spain [2 Euro's and a world cup] using the principle of ball retention as a basis for their team patterns would indicate that they would provide a decent template for us to follow.You obviously disagree and dismiss the Spanish success as being rather short term.Just wondering if you could expand on your theory in a bit more depth.

My point is that the top teams are getting used to the style of play, are letting them do it, breaking the play up eventually when Barca have done nothing much of worth with the ball and countering. I'm not saying that Barca would not beat a load of teams playing this way and have not been successful with it either. Their recentish record is pretty good of course it is. But their success in the top games against better sides has not been plain sailing most recently. Top national sides will also get to grips with this style in the same way.

I find watching Barca and indeed Spain rather sterile and boring for most of it. They pass and pass and pass then pass some more. It's very good passing as it happens but after a while it is hardly a spectacle. The English kids aren't taught to do this at all. My preferred watch in football terms is a bit of both but with at least an attempt at scoring before everyone has gone to sleep. Slick passing is good to watch as is a bit of dribbling with the ball and even a cross into the mix for the big targets to have a bash. One style will always be found out in the end so mix it up and do a bit of everything. For me Barca can't seem to do a plan B if the passing stuff isn't working out too well.

At the appropriate level, all styles of football are now vulnerable to disciplined teams.
Barcelona have dominated recently for two reasons, Lionel Messi ( the best player in Europe since Carl Fletcher ), and not having superfans or super owners.

I don't agree with the best team ever routine... anyone remember Cruyff's Ajax, Heighway's Liverpool, Puskas etc ? As someone has just said, tippy tappy it is, which IS boring but hardly surprising given the perfect nature of highly manicured pitches ... it reminds me of 5-a-side nonsense.
The Germans are disciplined, always have been, and are surprisingly physical. They think well and have confidence... they have always been there, just like the Chinese in whiff waff.
It's cyclical ... all the runes point away from the premiership, which is confirmed with the likes of Ronaldo and Modiric leaving these shores. Good. The English football industry deserves a hard time.

german football is very under rated in my view, If anything i trust many brits stop bashing it now.

Sensiblegreeny wrote:

Not really Gert. Firstly all this tippy tappy crap that teams like Barca come out with is only good for a short period. Teams learn to deal with it and if they have no end product it becomes sterile and worthless. It's almost as if it is keep ball and only keep ball with them and they have forgotten you have to score.

The other side of the coin is the type of training young kids get in this country. The emphasis is on work rate hence the big strapping lads being prefered. What they don't teach is ball skills at an early age in my opinion. I watched a large group of young kids on a beach in Spain last year who were doing some training. These were around the 9/10 age group. The biggest stand out was that they were all comfortable with the ball at their feet and not once did I see any of them just lump it up the beach and chase after it. They could run with the ball and pass it. I've watched youngsters over here and most of them couldn't do either very well and what's more weren#t being encouraged to either. We are light years behind in training techniques.

Don't agree entirely with your first paragraph Sensible. Barca have played some awesome football over the past 4 or 5 years and only weeks ago destroyed Milan at the Camp Nou to overturn their first leg deficit. Hardly tippy tappy crap for a short period. I do think they are past their best and they have been for a year or so. Some players have aged, they miss Villa in his prime after his injuries, other teams have worked out better ways to contain them not often successfully however.
Your 2ns paragraph I agree totally with. In Spain they do not even play on full sized pitches until they are about 13 and most junior leagues are played on smaller sized pitches where as you say ball control, passing and movement is the priority. In England at school and youth level the big kid who has physically developed faster is normally picked over the little kid even if less skilful and you see parents hollering at kids to welly it up the field. Also in Spain all kids have to play a certain time in all different outfield positions to raise their appreciation and awareness all over the field.

Love that Dortmund stadium

Fully expect Germany to continue doing a big shieser on England each and every single time the meet in international competitions for at least the next 20 years. German players are far superior technically, physically and mentally.

Travelling to Chipstead on Tuesday for the big game I heard on Talk Blox that you could only get 6-4 for two Spanish finalists while there was 11-2 available for both the Germans to progress, I said to the boys I was meeting that I felt that was a great price, wish I had taken my own advice.

Barca and Real have looked weak this season imho, Man Utd might well have dumped Real out had it not been for the Nani decision while Barca simply don't have a defence. The Germans have taken advantage by taking the game to them, in this country we suffer from the far too clever coach syndrome, Man City have some excellent players with a drip of a manager, the Arse have Wenger, nuff said, Chelsea were hamstrung by Abo buying in players that really didn't fit, the waiter is doing well to keep them in the frame, Poo by paying many millions for players that simply don't cut it, 40 mill and you can have Oscar and Mata or Jordan Henderson and Joe Allan, Spurs leaving themselves with one striker and Adebayor. A poorish United team have won the Prem by a street because the opposition were utter gash.