I might be crazy but am i alone in thinking?

Played a blinder over the last 18months by giving titles and honors to Chris webb, Ijn and the band of sheep PASB so they wouldnt call the dogs to war when these plans where released?

cnat help but feel that was the case all along they have been had

Band of sheep? Baa humbug

It seems increasingly likely that all the attacks on the trust were planned in order to derail it and possibly but potential joining supporters off by perceived in-fighting.

Only problem is that 90% of fans think the stadium plans are crap- this must worry brent and co with a stronger Trust emerging. only issue is that Brent has the local media in his pocket.

Damon.Lenszner wrote:

Band of sheep? Baa humbug

you being the wolf of course lol. No worries Damon i know you speak your mind and will continue to have your opinion. Besides your representing the trust the enemy so to speak.

Maybe they have all been done up like kippers. But they're all too stupid too realise.

Chemical Ali wrote:

It seems increasingly likely that all the attacks on the trust were planned in order to derail it and possibly but potential joining supporters off by perceived in-fighting.

Only problem is that 90% of fans think the stadium plans are crap- this must worry brent and co with a stronger Trust emerging. only issue is that Brent has the local media in his pocket.

destroying the trust has been objective number one for brent and co. Taking its leader, offer them 20% of the club for £400,000 and no say in how the club is run and creating the PASB and now refusing to speak to the trust because its doing its job.

Its sith taking control over the jedis in star wars 3 all over again.

Chemical Ali wrote:

Only problem is that 90% of fans think the stadium plans are crap- this must worry brent and co with a stronger Trust emerging. only issue is that Brent has the local media in his pocket.

But you don't have a 'stronger' trust emerging.. They have been marginalised, worse, they have been 'dismissed' by Brent and they haven't even responded.

This is the Trusts' last chance to make something of itself - otherwise it is finished! They must take the stadium issue and run with it gathering the fans behind them.

And what will the PASB do? If they are 'representing' fans, then it is likely that they will have to tell Brent the current plans are unacceptable. Will the PASB do that? What will Brent do if they do? What will the fans do if they don't?

anyone got ken bates number?

Rickler wrote:

Chemical Ali wrote:

Only problem is that 90% of fans think the stadium plans are crap- this must worry brent and co with a stronger Trust emerging. only issue is that Brent has the local media in his pocket.

But you don't have a 'stronger' trust emerging.. They have been marginalised, worse, they have been 'dismissed' by Brent and they haven't even responded.

This is the Trusts' last chance to make something of itself - otherwise it is finished! They must take the stadium issue and run with it gathering the fans behind them.

And what will the PASB do? If they are 'representing' fans, then it is likely that they will have to tell Brent the current plans are unacceptable. Will the PASB do that? What will Brent do if they do? What will the fans do if they don't?

Head for thinkin, feet fer dancin Rickler................ you'd make a fine trust leader........LA is most fortunate to have you as Ambassador.

What took you so long?

Obviously my credibility is compromised , given who I support, but I can assure you that I know of more than one person on our side of the fence who is in a position to know what they are talking about and who has predicted almost every step in the tortuous saga since Petey turned up on his walking holiday, through predicting the likely effects of the unfunded adminstration, culminating in anticipating the actions of Webb and co., the crowning of King Brent and the issues on the pitch.

Most of us Grecians have no dog in this fight, beyond a conviction that some form of constitutional fan representation - if not fan ownership - is the best way forward for all football fans and all bar a very few clubs. Neither can most of us be accused of having any personal axe to grind. Exeweb is only just beginning to recover from a long and nasty period in which a swathe of members left in disgust; as a consequence the exeweb spat with Ian Newell was played out to a cast of less than tens. I myself actually started from a postion of being grateful to Ian Newell for having been supportive to me over a nasty situation I experienced in the aforementioned bad old days of exeweb. The fact that most of us viewing from a distance have come to the same conclusion about Brent et al is therefore worthy of some consideration - in fact I've even been debating with a Turk on a football blog who appears to have seen through the Reluctant Bidder as well.

I know I'm not alone in having initially been put off ATD by the sort of abusive language that tends to surface here and by taking that language to mean that the site was home of a bunch of disaffected paranoid nutjobs, before gradually realising that beyond the "f*cks", "cnuts" and "a*sewipes", you were not as black as you were painted and were maybe kindred spirits of some description. That's why I urged you to consider a better tactical approach in another thread - turning off those who are unsure who to trust, simply by virtue of your rhetorical style is a very bad move when up against a practiced master manipulator like Brent. Howling at the moon might feel good for a while, but in the end it is little more than short-term gain for long-term pain.

When those of you who understand the situation read a vituperative post, this is what you see.

ATD Brent Sceptic wrote:

I object to the way that James Brent has been economical with the truth; has manipulated supporter opinion by co-opting self-styled, unelected fan leaders with the sort of patronage more reminiscent of a feudal court than genuine community engagement; has fostered personality cults in order to give his allies unrepresentative power; has created a myth that he never wanted to own the club and/or it's development land in order to smooth the path to his real objectives, when he was in reality one of the very first bidders for the club in conjunction with Peter Ridsdale, an individual subsequently proven to have acted corruptly during an insolvency event; has done everything in his power to undermine the democratically elected Supporter's Trust; and has at the very least made no comment in the face of compelling evidence that an individual on his board and others with privileged access to him have been connected in some way to underhand behaviour and dirty tricks used to attack Trust leaders and even the Trust itself. I am also concerned that certain prominent supporters, who claim to be friends of James Brent, but who have never been elected to any position nor sought any such election, have been implicated in similarly underhand behaviour, including threats against their critics on a supporters' message board.

This is what neutrals, waverers and those who want to support Brent, but who are beginning to have their doubts see.

ATD Brent Sceptic wrote:

*A*sewipe*...*porkstain*... *c*cksucker* *fecking tongue up his rectum*...*cnut*...*knobhead*...*jamboys"....*avivas*...*windsor boys*...*snooper*.

I'm not passing comment on the justification for such language, but you have to realise how it comes across to the neutral and decide if this sort of rhetoric is going to do you any good going forward. IMO you can choose between revelling in the sort of righteous indignation that may well be justified but will never get you anywhere beyond the converted or almost converted, or trying to win hearts and minds. All I can say is that I'm convinced that Brent and his footsoldiers would be absolutely ecstatic if you continued on the former path.

Consider Brent's example.

Whenever there is good news to be told (or news that is spun as good) you see him front it up. When his mug appears in the Herald, or on the FLS, or in any other media outlet, the image is always positive - the "Good Man"; the "Reluctant Bidder"; " The Man Who Stood Up for His Community And Saved a Lil' Ole Football Club Out Of The Goodness Of His Heart". Conversely, when anything negative comes out, or Nixonian dirty tricks or anything similarly sinister goes on, it's always seems to be someone else who ends up with dirty hands.

You can even learn a lesson or two from Ian Newell and Chris Webb. The former's tendency to attack and abuse his critics has clearly undermined his effectiveness even among the Brent faithful, whereas Webb has been able to duck and dive more effectively by adopting a more conciliatory and faux-statesmanlike air. Even though I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only one who winces at his tendency to mock-churchillian ultraviolet prose, I'm also sure that many swallow it hook, line and sinker. It is worth noting that whenever Webb has cracked under pressure and resorted to sly attacks and snide remarks, he is always anxious to cover himself when someone calls him out on it.

I have to say that I think it was a bad tactical mistake to attack Webb and ban him from the forum after he offered an olive branch when his father died, however angry with him many of the ATD membership might have been. In fact it really troubled me to read some of the stuff. Losing someone close is always tough and Webb is a human being at the end of the day. You may have been right that his motive was a cynical one - I don't know him - but even if it was, your reaction probably allowed him to make you all look bad among neutrals.

You also let him off the hook, in the sense that you lost the chance to ask more searching questions about a number of things. For example, you were unable to quiz him on Deep Throat and his somewhat far-fetched explanation of his involvement in that nasty little saga; nor could you directly query his acceptance of the patronage of the private owner immediately after his self-appointed role as the servant of the fans. You also lost the opportunity to ask him how on earth a so-called Trust leader, claiming to be a self-confessed "Supporter Of The Trust Model" and who allegedly had a critical role in helping a private owner, supposedly keen on supporter involvement, to buy the club (to the extent that said owner praised him in the local press and described him as "a friend") completely and utterly failed to convince his "friend" to deliver a scintilla of Trust involvement worth a row of beans at PAFC. In fact it's difficult to think of any Trust that has been so comprehensively sidelined by a private owner, let alone one whose former self-styled leader has done nothing to dispel the myth that he "saved" the club. Blackburn springs to mind, but I draw a blank beyond that.

If I was running ATD I'd revoke Webb's ban immediatley and reassure him that no abuse would be tolerated towards him as long as he was willing to debate in good faith with ATD members. As it is he can ignore your attacks, belittle your position by pointing to the way he's been treated and dismissing the whole thing as a personal vendetta.

In Brent you are dealing with an individual who cut his teeth on outmanoeuvring the best. He's not invincible, but bull-in-a-china-shop tactics are the worst way of tackling him. That's why I got so wound up when some of you attacked the Trust for organising the 60's disco and not wading in gung-ho when the initial plans were revealed. What if the Trust had done as you asked and fallen for Brent's bait-and-switch tactics? How would Brent and his allies have spun such an approach, when five minutes later he miraculously produced his "revised" plans?

You really need to be a lot more savvy than that. Perhaps you should offer John Petrie some moral support to return, if he's well enough. It strikes me that he was an example of just the sort of individual who should be acting for the fans, instead of the self-aggrandising likes of Webb. I expect that why Petrie was nobbled.

BTW, has Iddesleigh Jones commented on the shenanigans yet? ("It was the purporters wot done it, guv").

jabba the gut ecfc wrote:

I have to say that I think it was a bad tactical mistake to attack Webb and ban him from the forum after he offered an olive branch when his father died, however angry with him many of the ATD membership might have been. In fact it really troubled me to read some of the stuff. Losing someone close is always tough and Webb is a human being at the end of the day. You may have been right that his motive was a cynical one - I don't know him - but even if it was, your reaction probably allowed him to make you all look bad among neutrals.

You also let him off the hook, in the sense that you lost the chance to ask more searching questions about a number of things. For example, you were unable to quiz him on Deep Throat and his somewhat far-fetched explanation of his involvement in that nasty little saga; nor could you directly query his acceptance of the patronage of the private owner immediately after his self-appointed role as the servant of the fans. You also lost the opportunity to ask him how on earth a so-called Trust leader, claiming to be a self-confessed "Supporter Of The Trust Model" and who allegedly had a critical role in helping a private owner, supposedly keen on supporter involvement, to buy the club (to the extent that said owner praised him in the local press and described him as "a friend") completely and utterly failed to convince his "friend" to deliver a scintilla of Trust involvement worth a row of beans at PAFC. In fact it's difficult to think of any Trust that has been so comprehensively sidelined by a private owner, let alone one whose former self-styled leader has done nothing to dispel the myth that he "saved" the club. Blackburn springs to mind, but I draw a blank beyond that.

If I was running ATD I'd revoke Webb's ban immediatley and reassure him that no abuse would be tolerated towards him as long as he was willing to debate in good faith with ATD members. As it is he can ignore your attacks, belittle your position by pointing to the way he's been treated and dismissing the whole thing as a personal vendetta.

Do you know what the very first thing Chris Webb did after being appointed President?

He flounced off of ATD.

It doesn't matter what olive branches are offered. He can't stand the heat in the kitchen.

He's a charlatan and a huckster.

I think Jabba has it spot on.

Iddesleigh Jones, Windsor Webb, Deep Throat Newell and even Greenman de lar have all been brilliantly neutered by Brent. They will simply continue to kowtow from here on in and will not have a 'bad word said about that man and his lovely family'. They were all hopelessly outclassed, superbly manipulated and now can have no further role to play in fan representation - they are forever Brent poodles - for them it's over.

It may already be too late - but it is now or never - the time has come for the Trust to galvanise under strong and articulate leadership and together with people like Graham Clark, John Lloyd, John Petrie, Damon Lenszner and others to regroup and formulate a clear strategy for a Trust owned or part-owned club of the future that isn't hamstrung by the Brent plans of the present.

Mike Searle wrote:

It may already be too late - but it is now or never - the time has come for the Trust to galvanise under strong and articulate leadership and together with people like Graham Clark, John Lloyd, John Petrie, Damon Lenszner and others to regroup and formulate a clear strategy for a Trust owned or part-owned club of the future that isn't hamstrung by the Brent plans of the present.

I agree it is now or never, and that is true for the trust too...

Someone said the Trust need an issue for Argyle fans and supporters to rally around? Well if this isn't the right one for them, nothing is!

Rickler wrote:

Mike Searle wrote:

It may already be too late - but it is now or never - the time has come for the Trust to galvanise under strong and articulate leadership and together with people like Graham Clark, John Lloyd, John Petrie, Damon Lenszner and others to regroup and formulate a clear strategy for a Trust owned or part-owned club of the future that isn't hamstrung by the Brent plans of the present.

I agree it is now or never, and that is true for the trust too...

Someone said the Trust need an issue for Argyle fans and supporters to rally around? Well if this isn't the right one for them, nothing is!

I agree too its now time for the trust to mobilize, but that will be hard when brent has the local press in his pocket.

It's about ten year to late but at least there's a bit of fighting talk and an awakening of realism at last.

Of course the AFT won't be able to arrange events as Newell did in "his" war by spamming phone lines, email etc. but a unification of fans and a single voice can be provided by the AFT.

lawnmowerman wrote:

I agree too its now time for the trust to mobilize, but that will be hard when brent has the local press in his pocket.

Again, someone earlier made a similar comment along the same lines...


The trust have to switch the attention in the press to the grandstand and developement being an issue between fans and Brent, where the fans are dissatisfied, and the Trust are representing them.

Therefore, Brent must deal with the Trust.

Truthfully... The trust has to "eighty six" the PASB if it ever wants to be taken seriously as 'the man'.

lawnmowerman wrote:

Rickler wrote:

Mike Searle wrote:

It may already be too late - but it is now or never - the time has come for the Trust to galvanise under strong and articulate leadership and together with people like Graham Clark, John Lloyd, John Petrie, Damon Lenszner and others to regroup and formulate a clear strategy for a Trust owned or part-owned club of the future that isn't hamstrung by the Brent plans of the present.

I agree it is now or never, and that is true for the trust too...

Someone said the Trust need an issue for Argyle fans and supporters to rally around? Well if this isn't the right one for them, nothing is!

I agree too its now time for the trust to mobilize, but that will be hard when brent has the local press in his pocket.

I notice only Hooper is putting his head above the parapet - this is the turning point for those fans who have been wavering on the Brent venture, dump this pasb thing and take your place behind the Trust!

It is now them v us!

Rickler wrote:

jabba the gut ecfc wrote:

I have to say that I think it was a bad tactical mistake to attack Webb and ban him from the forum after he offered an olive branch when his father died, however angry with him many of the ATD membership might have been. In fact it really troubled me to read some of the stuff. Losing someone close is always tough and Webb is a human being at the end of the day. You may have been right that his motive was a cynical one - I don't know him - but even if it was, your reaction probably allowed him to make you all look bad among neutrals.

You also let him off the hook, in the sense that you lost the chance to ask more searching questions about a number of things. For example, you were unable to quiz him on Deep Throat and his somewhat far-fetched explanation of his involvement in that nasty little saga; nor could you directly query his acceptance of the patronage of the private owner immediately after his self-appointed role as the servant of the fans. You also lost the opportunity to ask him how on earth a so-called Trust leader, claiming to be a self-confessed "Supporter Of The Trust Model" and who allegedly had a critical role in helping a private owner, supposedly keen on supporter involvement, to buy the club (to the extent that said owner praised him in the local press and described him as "a friend") completely and utterly failed to convince his "friend" to deliver a scintilla of Trust involvement worth a row of beans at PAFC. In fact it's difficult to think of any Trust that has been so comprehensively sidelined by a private owner, let alone one whose former self-styled leader has done nothing to dispel the myth that he "saved" the club. Blackburn springs to mind, but I draw a blank beyond that.

If I was running ATD I'd revoke Webb's ban immediatley and reassure him that no abuse would be tolerated towards him as long as he was willing to debate in good faith with ATD members. As it is he can ignore your attacks, belittle your position by pointing to the way he's been treated and dismissing the whole thing as a personal vendetta.

Do you know what the very first thing Chris Webb did after being appointed President?

He flounced off of ATD.

It doesn't matter what olive branches are offered. He can't stand the heat in the kitchen.

He's a charlatan and a huckster.

Sorry jabba, I think a lot of what you have posted is well thought out and questions some of our views. I think you are wrong on Webb. As Ricks alludes, whenever he faced questions on here he never answered them and would flounce off the site. His favourite answer was "I've answered that many times before" when he hadn't. Yes the comments to him and about him have been over the top but he has joined in the name calling about this site, has posted using multi accounts which have attacked this site and has also been involved in the removal of ATD posters from voluntary positions at the club (presumably as they post on ATD).

I even asked him if he was Windsor boy on twitter last year and he denied it, but has since admitted to it, he denied posting as deep throat on pasoti but has since admitted it. Thus even if he is asked a question are we going to get the honest answer?

Mike Searle wrote:

I think Jabba has it spot on.

Iddesleigh Jones, Windsor Webb, Deep Throat Newell and even Greenman de lar have all been brilliantly neutered by Brent. They will simply continue to kowtow from here on in and will not have a 'bad word said about that man and his lovely family'. They were all hopelessly outclassed, superbly manipulated and now can have no further role to play in fan representation - they are forever Brent poodles - for them it's over.

It may already be too late - but it is now or never - the time has come for the Trust to galvanise under strong and articulate leadership and together with people like Graham Clark, John Lloyd, John Petrie, Damon Lenszner and others to regroup and formulate a clear strategy for a Trust owned or part-owned club of the future that isn't hamstrung by the Brent plans of the present.

100% agree Mike ! Bravo !

Good post jabba.

Chemical Ali wrote:

Only problem is that 90% of fans think the stadium plans are crap- this must worry brent and co with a stronger Trust emerging. only issue is that Brent has the local media in his pocket.

You sure of that, 90% ?

While a majority of respondents on th'interweb seem to have a pretty puerile negativity toward getting a new stand for free believing obviously that the fairies would turn up toute de suite to knock up some version of the Santiago Bernabeu should the plans be cancelled. The amateur mistake you are making is in not devining exactly how much that dislike would influence future decision making (c. Polling for Beginners), nor how significant a sample of the actual support is represented by by the howl at the moon users of ATD and that other place.

I could of course be wrong, there is bound to be a first time, but imho focusing the efforts of your Trust in negativity would be the wrong course of action. Positive, hopeful but cautious should be your watchwords not trying to take advantage of an opportunity to put the boot in.

Lord Tisdale wrote:

Chemical Ali wrote:

Only problem is that 90% of fans think the stadium plans are crap- this must worry brent and co with a stronger Trust emerging. only issue is that Brent has the local media in his pocket.

You sure of that, 90% ?

While a majority of respondents on th'interweb seem to have a pretty puerile negativity toward getting a new stand for free believing obviously that the fairies would turn up toute de suite to knock up some version of the Santiago Bernabeu should the plans be cancelled. The amateur mistake you are making is in not devining exactly how much that dislike would influence future decision making (c. Polling for Beginners), nor how bid a sample of the actual support is represented by by the howl at the moon users of ATD and that other place.

I could of course be wrong, there is bound to be a first time, but imho focusing the efforts of your Trust in negativity would be the wrong course of action. Positive, hopeful but cautious should be your watchwords not trying to take advantage of an opportunity to put the boot in.

you are wrong on this LT. You seem to think we want an old trafford size stadium and not a simple one that can be improved on and is worth knocking down the old stand for. Thats all have you looked at the plans at all? if the fans of ours dont speak up the club will suffer down the road in a few years if the success on the pitch happens.

I've not read any of this but Angry, that avatar is niiiiiice