Jimmy Abdou and Realistic Expectations

Remember Jimmy Abdou?

He formed a useful part of our midfield in the 2007-08 season, playing most of the games as we transitioned between the Holloway and Sturrock eras and while he rarely quickened the pulse, he always did a sterling job for the team. I liked him.

But we let him go to Millwall, a division below us at the time, because he wanted a longer or better contract.

No-one was really that fussed about his departure, but I've kept an eye on him whenever Millwall have popped up on the telly and he's done the same job for the Lions - quietly effective, rarely drawing the eye, but getting the job done.

He was the fan's Player of the Year at the Den last year, and there he was on the Football League show again this weekend, playing a full 90 as Millwall reached 6th in the Championship with a 2-0 win away at Blackburn.

Remember being in the top six of the Championship? Yes, I know - I'm sorry...

So, what's the point of mentioning a player like Jimmy Abdou - a one season midfield metronome?

I don't really know why - but seeing him at that level now, after he left us to go down a league for a better contract than we were offering, seems to encapsulate the frustrations and circularity of the last five years.

We thought we were better than Jimmy Abdou, but he has proved to be better than us.

Perhaps if more than 13k in a City of a quarter of a million had been turning out to see Argyle when he played for us, we might have been in a better position to offer him a more attractive contract. We may have been able to offer more of that 2007 team a better contract and keep building on the amazing progress that had been made in the five years before that.

To be clear, I am not blaming the supporters for the failure of the last five years, but I do wonder what more could have been done in the 2006 - 2007 period to prove to the long-term naysayers that there was something worthwhile going at Home Park and that it was something that more people should want to be a part of.

Plymouth - we're the 13/14th largest town in the country - blah, blah, blah. It proves that mere population size just doesn't equate to a real bedrock support, even when the team is doing well. The City never really turned up, just when it was needed most.

So what? Well, I'd say that means that the expectations of our fans need to reflect reality. The owners of Argyle will always come to the same conclusion. They always have.

Recent history confirms what old history already told us - Plymouth couldn't support a top tier club. It struggles to support a second tier club. It should be able to support a third tier club. We're currently told it can't support a fourth tier club. That is truly shocking, but it shouldn't be a real surprise, given the utter chaos the New World regime left us - and James Brent with - a burden of historic and epic debts to be repaid over the next five years that probably accounts for two thousand bits of our ticket income every Saturday.

In which case, Argyle fans may need to prepare for a very long, slow and painful crawl towards self-sustainability, almost certainly dependent on stop-gap funding of the type James Brent has been forced into already this season.

That means the fanbase has to manage it's expectations radically, even though we will be frequently fed PR lines of "competitive budgets" and "play-offs being a reasonable target", in order that we keep up a modicum of interest in what actually happens on the pitch on a Saturday afternoon.

After the incredible damage done in 2010-2011, our continued existence is an achievement, but real improvement is only an ambition. Expecting more, quickly, is to buck the trend of history.

There is little point in tub-thumping, or demanding instant, or even gradual success. Our progress over the next few months and years will be glacial, at best. We need to get used to that.

It's all a matter of balancing our costs against the expectations of future club incomes, the level of which is mostly in our hands.

We know that Carl Fletcher and the coaching staff are doing their best and we know that they're falling short at the moment.

I still have a sense that there is a decent team on the edge of emerging from the brittle and fragile performances of the last few weeks, but that doesn't pay the bills when we don't win for a month or two.

James Brent has to do that instead. As has every owner in Argyle's long history when the population doesn't believe in the club and where it seems to be headed at that moment in time.

We know that James Brent did a good thing in saving our club, at some personal and financial cost to himself. We also know that he expects to reap some rewards from that exposure at some point, by developing the land around the club, so that it can perhaps balance the books - both his and it's own.

That's fine - I'm OK with that, so long as we can see some evidence that the club will benefit in some meaningful way as well.

That's how the modern world has always worked - the risk-takers build something and the populace either joins in, or it doesn't.

So, he needs to assess the true costs of management change against the realistic expectation of a long term benefit in doing so. He believes in Carl Fletcher and his team and he doesn't seem to be affected by short-termism - he looks to the long term instead. That makes some sense to me (and it's a rarity in football circles) and I'm inclined to agree that the course we're on is still a safe one, even though it's a tough journey at the moment.

Retaining is always cheaper than recruiting and all we REALLY need to do this season is avoid relegation - that is perfectly achievable with the current set-up, perhaps now to be aided by a wise old head upstairs.

What happens next season is more problematic. Another season of mordant toil in the lower reaches of the fourth tier will not set the tills ringing for season ticket renewals, lanyard or not. But our costbase should be lower next term and so a smaller number of ST holders may well just about balance the books.

It's a hard road ahead, but one day, perhaps, we will be good enough for a Jimmy Abdou to sign for again.

That's worth holding on for.

Another "its the fans fault thread"

John_Lloyd wrote:

Remember Jimmy Abdou?

He formed a useful part of our midfield in the 2007-08 season, playing most of the games as we transitioned between the Holloway and Sturrock eras and while he rarely quickened the pulse, he always did a sterling job for the team. I liked him.

But we let him go to Millwall, a division below us at the time, because he wanted a longer or better contract.

No-one was really that fussed about his departure, but I've kept an eye on him whenever Millwall have popped up on the telly and he's done the same job for the Lions - quietly effective, rarely drawing the eye, but getting the job done.

He was the fan's Player of the Year at the Den last year, and there he was on the Football League show again this weekend, playing a full 90 as Millwall reached 6th in the Championship with a 2-0 win away at Blackburn.

Remember being in the top six of the Championship? Yes, I know - I'm sorry...

So, what's the point of mentioning a player like Jimmy Abdou - a one season midfield metronome?

I don't really know why - but seeing him at that level now, after he left us to go down a league for a better contract than we were offering, seems to encapsulate the frustrations and circularity of the last five years.

We thought we were better than Jimmy Abdou, but he has proved to be better than us.

Perhaps if more than 13k in a City of a quarter of a million had been turning out to see Argyle when he played for us, we might have been in a better position to offer him a more attractive contract. We may have been able to offer more of that 2007 team a better contract and keep building on the amazing progress that had been made in the five years before that.

To be clear, I am not blaming the supporters for the failure of the last five years, but I do wonder what more could have been done in the 2006 - 2007 period to prove to the long-term naysayers that there was something worthwhile going at Home Park and that it was something that more people should want to be a part of.

Plymouth - we're the 13/14th largest town in the country - blah, blah, blah. It proves that mere population size just doesn't equate to a real bedrock support, even when the team is doing well. The City never really turned up, just when it was needed most.

So what? Well, I'd say that means that the expectations of our fans need to reflect reality. The owners of Argyle will always come to the same conclusion. They always have.

Recent history confirms what old history already told us - Plymouth couldn't support a top tier club. It struggles to support a second tier club. It should be able to support a third tier club. We're currently told it can't support a fourth tier club. That is truly shocking, but it shouldn't be a real surprise, given the utter chaos the New World regime left us - and James Brent with - a burden of historic and epic debts to be repaid over the next five years that probably accounts for two thousand bits of our ticket income every Saturday.

In which case, Argyle fans may need to prepare for a very long, slow and painful crawl towards self-sustainability, almost certainly dependent on stop-gap funding of the type James Brent has been forced into already this season.

That means the fanbase has to manage it's expectations radically, even though we will be frequently fed PR lines of "competitive budgets" and "play-offs being a reasonable target", in order that we keep up a modicum of interest in what actually happens on the pitch on a Saturday afternoon.

After the incredible damage done in 2010-2011, our continued existence is an achievement, but real improvement is only an ambition. Expecting more, quickly, is to buck the trend of history.

There is little point in tub-thumping, or demanding instant, or even gradual success. Our progress over the next few months and years will be glacial, at best. We need to get used to that.

It's all a matter of balancing our costs against the expectations of future club incomes, the level of which is mostly in our hands.

We know that Carl Fletcher and the coaching staff are doing their best and we know that they're falling short at the moment.

I still have a sense that there is a decent team on the edge of emerging from the brittle and fragile performances of the last few weeks, but that doesn't pay the bills when we don't win for a month or two.

James Brent has to do that instead. As has every owner in Argyle's long history when the population doesn't believe in the club and where it seems to be headed at that moment in time.

We know that James Brent did a good thing in saving our club, at some personal and financial cost to himself. We also know that he expects to reap some rewards from that exposure at some point, by developing the land around the club, so that it can perhaps balance the books - both his and it's own.

That's fine - I'm OK with that, so long as we can see some evidence that the club will benefit in some meaningful way as well.

That's how the modern world has always worked - the risk-takers build something and the populace either joins in, or it doesn't.

So, he needs to assess the true costs of management change against the realistic expectation of a long term benefit in doing so. He believes in Carl Fletcher and his team and he doesn't seem to be affected by short-termism - he looks to the long term instead. That makes some sense to me (and it's a rarity in football circles) and I'm inclined to agree that the course we're on is still a safe one, even though it's a tough journey at the moment.

Retaining is always cheaper than recruiting and all we REALLY need to do this season is avoid relegation - that is perfectly achievable with the current set-up, perhaps now to be aided by a wise old head upstairs.

What happens next season is more problematic. Another season of mordant toil in the lower reaches of the fourth tier will not set the tills ringing for season ticket renewals, lanyard or not. But our costbase should be lower next term and so a smaller number of ST holders may well just about balance the books.

It's a hard road ahead, but one day, perhaps, we will be good enough for a Jimmy Abdou to sign for again.

That's worth holding on for.

Utter rubbish.I switched off at the "history told us" bit.If you'd researched your history properly,then history would have told you that at one time Aryle were getting bigger gates than Southampton,Ipswich,Norwich,Coventry in times way gone by and Swansea,Cardiff,Blackpool and Burnley in more recent times.A travesty of a post from an allegedly respected supporter.Tub thumping,establishment bullshit.

punchdrunk wrote:

Another "its the fans fault thread"

i agree sadly

BTW,something else factual about Millwall.They've just moved into 5th place in the championship.Average gate last season 11484.Lower than our average gate in the first 4 seasons of our last stay in the championship.

Lloyd has always been a disciple of Pasoti and the establishment.

John Lloyd - is this a wind up? "one day we might be good enough a Jimmy Abdou to sign again" he was'nt that good anyway.
So it's the fans fault for complaining and not truly believing!

akagreengull wrote:

John Lloyd - is this a wind up? "one day we might be good enough a Jimmy Abdou to sign again" he was'nt that good anyway.
So it's the fans fault for complaining and not truly believing!

Like i said..the Order Of Aviva continues to thrive...Ian Newell, Chris Webb, Rapson, Greensam , Hairy J and many more

John Lloyd...come on down!!!!

I see on Pasoti the lobotomized masses are in agreement with Goebe...cough Lloyd

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Aviva till the end

feck me

Tl; dr

The fact that you label everyone who doesn't share your opinion and your opinion exactly as part of the terrible establishment and only those who see the Argyle related world exactly as you do as the truly enlightened means I can never take you seriously punchdrunk. Absolute clown. Are you permanently pissed on this site?

This club is going soft allover now, eating out of the hand of Brent. Why are reasonable people falling for it?

How many thousands do you think will have the patience to "keep the faith" and still turn up if the bleak scenario you paint is the actuality, John?

I know I won't be. The Brent model of self sustainability, seemingly putting balancing the books above achieving footballing success is not the future of football, more likely it will demonstrate how to kill a football club. Greenskin has provided numerous examples of "who dares, wins".

We have been let down by this club and it's custodians since time immemorial, James Brent is just the latest incarnation showing there's more than on way to feck a football club. We deserve better, we've done nothing wrong.

GreenSam wrote:

The fact that you label everyone who doesn't share your opinion and your opinion exactly as part of the terrible establishment and only those who see the Argyle related world exactly as you do as the truly enlightened means I can never take you seriously punchdrunk. Absolute clown. Are you permanently pissed on this site?

I wish i was drunk GS.... in fact things have got so bad alcohol is in fact a pre-requisite for anything Argyle related these days.
Cheers

Anyone know what the word 'brevity' means?

All I'd say is, even though much of our income is going to servicing debts we are currently looking up at a number of teams that have average attendances less than half ours, including 'the likes of' Morecambe (avg attendance: 1800) Dagenham (1700) and Accrington (1700). I didn't expect us to get promoted this season, I just wanted to see some evidence that we were making progress in the right direction. I suspect most Argyle fans were the same. Instead our results have actually deteriorated since last season (see the topic I started on John Deehan from last week).

The footballing side of the club should be better than this, regardless of the financial state that we are in, or our recent history. The question is whether Brent gives two hoots about the football club, or is it just an inconvenient appendage to his development plans. Today's DOF announcement gives me some encouragement but I'm yet to be convinced.

I often agree with JL on a whole range of topics but I think you're a way out on this one John.

It really is a bit of a wind up when people accuse the fans of turning their backs on the club considering we are probably supporting the least successful club in Europe and probably the least successful club in the world in relative terms.

I remember saying on the Rotg site all those years ago that Swansea, who were then in the division that we find ourselves in yet again, will overtake us with the attitude that Stapleton had after he attacked the fans in a similar fashion. - When we stop feeling sorry for ourselves than we may just see the club progress.

Not only are we the least successful club in Europe but, we also have the most excuses for our failure, I have read them all from the coast to the cost of a rail ticket.

Face up to the facts, we support a failure of a club that has achieved nothing and delivered nothing but humiliation, when we can come to terms with that and demand success rather than kissing the ass of owners we may eventually achieve something.

Firstly, it seems a bit wierd penning a piece like that, then posting it both here and over at HQ Pyongyang.

It was bound to get two different reactions, but maybe that was the intention...

As far as JL's take on things that the course we're on "is still a safe one". Well, all that does is demonstrate to me that having intellect doesn't necessarily equate to being able to grasp the blindingly obvious.

I tend to agree Czar, it's a simple case of mathematics, logical reasoning and basic common sense.

It's almost like some people have to find a reason why the club has fallen on its face while dismissing the fact that the club has been a complete underachiever time and time and time and time and time and time....again!

You sell a good product and you get lots of customers, you sell a shyte product and you get very few customers. - Can it be any easier to work out?

I've really admired people like John lloyd over the years. Never met him and as far as I know, he doesn't know me. I own few of his books and always read what he has to say.

I truly believe he is his own man, I'm fairly certain of that. He calls it how he sees it -not as others wish him to call it. But we're all influenced.

I despair at John's tolerance of the odious and devious Lee Jameson - Deepthroat, IMHO, was even more disgusting than Ottawa Green's clanger re: Bex Harvey

John - I believe you know Peter Jones - please - call him out.

Evening all

I posted the same piece on both sites, as I believe each site is an important forum for Argyle-related topics - no favouritism or false choices for me on that aspect.

I am using Jimmy Abdou simply as a metaphor for where we once were and where we now find ourselves - it does crystallise things to see him a part of a top six Championship side now.

If you read more carefully, you will see that I explicitly do not criticise "the fans" - instead I make the case that the rest of the City didn't respond to the success of the 2006-7 sides and join the 16k that had already picked up on the quality of the team at the time.

We always had space for more and once the novelty of the Championship wore off, there were even more empty seats.

I'm more than aware of the relative attendances of the club in our history - I'm proof reading Steve Rhodes's next book on the 1960's team, so I know full well what the City has generated in the past. I'm focusing on that 2006-08 period, when we were already beginning to lose money on attendances versus wages. It told the board that we couldn't continue to keep that squad together when they started asking for wages commensurate with a top six side, while the attendances were sliding.

These are awkward points to accept, but the rest of my post (longwinded as it was) sought to understand the harsh realities of where we are now - and why James Brent may not be responding to the wishes of a large tranche of fan opinion in the way that they may expect.

The last few years have made me far more dispassionate and reasoned on Argyle's expectations and ambitions - not cynical or dismissive - just a bit more realistic and measured.

punchdrunk wrote:

Another "its the fans fault thread"

Anybody - any single cell life-form, knows it can't be the fans' fault. By definition, fans have already bought in.

It's the non-fans that are the underlying economic problem - and there, in a nutshell, is the marketing and ulimately the financial conundrum for every professional football club in the world.

Only the club, any club - and its present custodians can change anything meaningful.

Interesting OP John. I didn't see it as criticising fans more of a statement of the rest of the city not stepping up to the plate when the club needed them most while it had a very good product on offer.

Its the sort of 'matchday experience' for fans that James Brent can only dream about while we have the current manager and coaching staff in place. If we had a quarter of that quality on show (and I mean both players and coaches) this season I think we would be a lot nearer the 7500 - 8000 break even point or even past it.

Thanks MOG - glad that some can see the nub of my point.

I did ramble on a bit, so that's probably my fault.

Night all.

John_Lloyd wrote:

Thanks MOG - glad that some can see the nub of my point.

I did ramble on a bit, so that's probably my fault.

Night all.

- or don't call him out, obv your choice.

Night John - boy.

We couldn't afford to offer Jimmy Abdou a bigger contract than Millwall (that's just laughable in itself) but we could afford to buy the Freehold and spend huge sums on planning for Phase 2 but it was the fault of the non-attending Plymouth public when it all went belly-up?. Why is it the people who come up with these comments are nearly always living far away from Plymouth?

The fans who do attend have been shafted through poor decision-making time after time. Those who don't bother attending laugh at those who do but many of them would be quickly converted into attending if football was a priority at the club. An extra 5-6k through the gates would not have prevented £8m worth of player sales.