Plymouth, Stonehouse and Devonport

This cropped up in conversation today and I didn't know the answer. "The "City of Plymouth" is actually a combination of the three old towns of Plymouth, Stonehouse and Devonport. But why was Plymouth chosen as the new name when they merged? Wouldn't Stonehouse be more important because it has a cathedral or Devonport because of the navy being based there? What was it about Plymouth all those years ago that made it top dog?

I'd hazard a guess that the 'River Plym' as a name preceded all three, and it was taken from there?

Or perhaps there was a precedent in bigger town names from places like Portsmouth, Dartmouth, etc?

This is a very interesting site on all things Plymouthian. But even on there there isn't a detailed account of 'why Plymouth?'.

And this is also a fascinating site that could take you a long time to fully explore. I've looked at it often. It's a bit like looking through a junk shop with lots of interesting finds.

I don't know why it was called Plymouth. I'd guess that was where the money was - in terms of housing Stonehouse & Devonport being very run-down when they were amalgamated.

The Plym isn't much of a river. Very tidal and not that deep so it isn't much good as a trade route to the interior or for docks where cargo could be loaded and unloaded. Old Plymouth was centred around Sutton which we now recognise as the Barbican and Bretonside rather than the river. Think of the Mayflower Steps. So the Plym didn't have that much strategic influence. When it comes down to it the Tamar was a much better river being much less tidal and offering access to the mines which were upstream like Morwellham and Cotehele. If the place was to be named after the best river it would have been Tamarmouth but that didn't happen either. I wonder why that was?

Chris Robinson also has a bit on the history of pubs and places in Plymouth.

I've seen a couple of sources state that plympton (plum tree town) was the original docking area but the plym silted up. Trade transferred to the barbican in the town of Sutton. The name Plymouth was first mentioned in the 1200's.

Thanks for those Knecht. Just shared them with my old man.

Lots of Plymouth used to be very wet. Even not that long ago DHS for boys had a creek in front of it. After the civil war battle in Freedom Fields the routed royalist oppressors were either butchered in what we now know of as the park or were chased into Lipson Creek. Knecht's link [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] coughs up this.

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Plympton was the main centre of population until the mid-1300s. Its main industry was exporting Dartmoor tin and in 1328 it petitioned to become a Stannary Town on the basis that the tin could be loaded direct onto ships for export whereas at Tavistock it had to be transported by road to the River Tamar before it could be shipped. Although its petition succeeded, Plympton eventually lost its trade to Sutton when the river Plym silted up with the waste from the tin-streaming.

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Crispin Gill states that the name Plym Mouth was first used in the Pipe Rolls for 1211 when a shipload of bacon was despatched to Portsmouth and another of wine to Nottingham. Plymouth clearly grew in importance as a result of this trade and it became a market town on January 27th 1254, although the Prior of Plympton held the market rights. It led to claims and counter-claims about who was lord of the manor and an inquiry was held. The judge reached certain important decisions, namely that the original Sutton, on the north shore of Sutton Pool, was owned by the Prior of Plympton; that the so far undeveloped land to the south was owned by a John Valletort; and the port itself belonged to the King.

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A fresh petition was sent to Parliament in 1439 and the Charter of Incorporation was granted by King Henry VI -- the first such charter in the country to be granted by Act of Parliament.

The extent of the Town was still very small. There was very little south of Notte Street although the line of Southside Street ran towards the Castle, which was situated just above what is now the West Pier. There was a gate here, the Barbican Gate. From Notte Street there ran a street up to Hoe Gate. To the west there was nothing beyond Catherine Street although the wall was much further out. The West or Frankfort Gate was at the junction of routes to what was then called the Sourepool and to Stonehouse. Looe Street, Buckwell Street and the southern part of Old Town Street existed. The wall ran along the northern boundary, past Old Town Gate and then south to Martyn's or East Gate. Breton Side, where it all began on the northern shore of Sutton Pool, lay outside the wall until much later. Also outside the wall was the Carmelite Friary from which Friary Station later took its name.

In the 16th Century

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Devonport did not exist at this time. The area it later covered was again purely agricultural, with the manor house at Keyham Barton, overlooking Keyham Lake. The Lake, or really it was a creek, stretched from the Hamoaze right up to the base of Swilly and was crossed at the Ford from which Ford Hill took its name. The parish church was known as Stoke Damerel and the parish stretched right up to Saint Budeaux and eastwards to the stream on the in the valley below what is now Central Park.

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When William of Orange landed at Brixham in 1688, Plymouth became the first town in England to declare support for him. And it is to him that Plymouth owes its major industry. Plymouth had been a naval station for centuries but it never had good facilities for repairing men-of-war. King William changed all this when in 1691 he authorised work to begin on the first dock over to the west, on the banks of the Hamoaze. As this expanded through the 18th century, so too did the township around it, which was known as Plymouth Dock.

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By the early decades of the 19th century, Plymouth Dock was bigger than Plymouth itself and yearned for a separate identity. This it achieved and on January 1st 1824 the Town got its own identity as Devonport

So Plymouth was the oldest of the three towns. Plympton was older but was still remote from Plymouth in those days and was eventually swallowed up as Plymouth got bigger.

If I remember rightly, wasn't Plympton separate from Plymouth until the 1960's?

Take a look at a big map of Plymouth and you can get a sense of how 'wet' Plymouth was in the past. Lots of the creeks have either silted up or have been purposely filled in. I first got interested in that aspect of Plymouth when I realised that where my grandparents lived - Ernesettle - was built on a creek that had its origins in a stream that flowed down from Crownhill/Whitleigh (where there actually was a mill at one point at the bottom of Whitleigh) and more importantly from Tamerton Foliot. Camel's Head has changed vastly in my lifetime and the vestiges of the stream creek is still to be seen flowing - take it up to Weston Mill - again named for obvious reasons. Stonehouse Creek is long gone but is still there as Victoria Park.

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

The Plym isn't much of a river. Very tidal and not that deep so it isn't much good as a trade route to the interior or for docks where cargo could be loaded and unloaded. Old Plymouth was centred around Sutton which we now recognise as the Barbican and Bretonside rather than the river. Think of the Mayflower Steps. So the Plym didn't have that much strategic influence. When it comes down to it the Tamar was a much better river being much less tidal and offering access to the mines which were upstream like Morwellham and Cotehele. If the place was to be named after the best river it would have been Tamarmouth but that didn't happen either. I wonder why that was?

I agree with a lot of what you say however the Tamar is less affected by the depth of the tide although the run of the tide is very very much stronger when negotiating the mouth of the Tamar, I am sure that is why the port and fish market were located on the Barbican. You have to remember it was all muscle and sail power back then, also good points made about the surrounding land being wet, it must have good access from the land. Very interesting bits and bobs in there though.