Loan Window

The loan window opens tomorrow do you expect any incoming players?

attacking midfielder,

new manager?

Not unless we ship a couple out.

If we could offload Chadwick, Lennox, Sims and Copp, highly unlikely I know but we have far too big a squad to get anyone in I should think.

Greenjock wrote:

Not unless we ship a couple out.

If we could offload Chadwick, Lennox, Sims and Copp, highly unlikely I know but we have far too big a squad to get anyone in I should think.

Trust me we don't want to offload Sims and Copp. They're gonna be proper players in the future, big time.

Chadwick I agree. Lennox I think can be a decent squad option but I wouldn't exactly shed tears if he left. Jed Harper Penman, Vassell and maybe Chenoweth are different kettles of fish. If we shifted those 5, and perhaps Feeney too (but kept Copp and Sims for the future, we won't regret it if we do), we could have a lot more money avalible to sign some top quality League 2 players. That, I think is Fletcher's big mistake. Signing too many players instead of signing fewer, but better players.

According to Leigh Crapson, Chadwick is going - his contract will be terminated and he'll be paid off. He heard it from a good source.
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I expect two loan signings and I predict one will be a season long loan for Macdonald and also a loan move for a central defender as, without Purse or Blanchard, we're very exposed in that area. I don't see Nelson being put there out of choice; not because he's a bad player but because it isn't his position.

I'd like three as I'd like some competition for both Hourihane and Wotton - when Lowry is fit, you'll have one of those two in the starting eleven and I'd like to see Hourihane pushed a bit.

Some players just have to be paid off somehow. We can't have them hanging around until January and I doubt anyone will take them on loan. Creativity is still lacking across the midfield and it'll probably be a spotty teenager who's 'promising'.

Would like a box to box midfielder and another striker personally

GreenSam wrote:

Greenjock wrote:

Not unless we ship a couple out.

If we could offload Chadwick, Lennox, Sims and Copp, highly unlikely I know but we have far too big a squad to get anyone in I should think.

Trust me we don't want to offload Sims and Copp. They're gonna be proper players in the future, big time.

Chadwick I agree. Lennox I think can be a decent squad option but I wouldn't exactly shed tears if he left. Jed Harper Penman, Vassell and maybe Chenoweth are different kettles of fish. If we shifted those 5, and perhaps Feeney too (but kept Copp and Sims for the future, we won't regret it if we do), we could have a lot more money avalible to sign some top quality League 2 players. That, I think is Fletcher's big mistake. Signing too many players instead of signing fewer, but better players.

I was thinking more of loaning them out to get some more experience Sam. At the moment we have a bloated squad, no Robbie Williams jokes please, and shifting any of the wage bill elsewhere might mean we can get someone ready to go into the first team, which I don't think Sims or Copp are at the moment.

If the Chadwick being released rumour is true I would keep Feeney, but we seem to have a few wingers and they are just syphoning some of our competetive budget at the moment.

I think Vassell went out on loan a while back, but I might be wrong. You need 3 keepers really, but I would let Chenoweth go out on loan with a clause that he could be immediately recalled in an emergency.

Fair enough Jock- Copp and Sims I'd personally like to have around the periphery of the squad. Vassell is out on loan, as is JHP but in all honesty I can't see much of a future for either of them. Lots of pace, limited ability. Chenoweth fair point but we've got Christian Walton, we've got the emergency loan system. Those alternatives would only ever be needed if Cole and Rene were both unavalible. I've never seen the guy play to be fair so he could be a good keeper, but there are other options I feel and every player on our books nibbles away at the budget.

If Chadders, JHP, Vass, Chenoweth and Lennox were off the wage bill, the savings could go towards a quality winger and the forward that I think we need. Although if possible I'd quite like to keep Lennox out of those 5. He's a decent player off the bench.

GreenSam wrote:

Greenjock wrote:

Not unless we ship a couple out.

If we could offload Chadwick, Lennox, Sims and Copp, highly unlikely I know but we have far too big a squad to get anyone in I should think.

Trust me we don't want to offload Sims and Copp. They're gonna be proper players in the future, big time.

Chadwick I agree. Lennox I think can be a decent squad option but I wouldn't exactly shed tears if he left. Jed Harper Penman, Vassell and maybe Chenoweth are different kettles of fish. If we shifted those 5, and perhaps Feeney too (but kept Copp and Sims for the future, we won't regret it if we do), we could have a lot more money avalible to sign some top quality League 2 players. That, I think is Fletcher's big mistake. Signing too many players instead of signing fewer, but better players.

I'm just curious how you can be so sure we've ended up with quantity over quality and it's all down to Fletch?

A few weeks back Fletch mentioned a salary cap in place and I got the impression he wasn't talking about the well known 55% ruling but more a cap in-house. It would explain why we signed non-league hopefuls, a medical risk, a rival's reject (after only one season) and a keeper who has never made it anywhere. I also remember Brent saying how he wanted to see young players coming through, nothing wrong with that of course but these young players will need experienced players alongside them to get the best out of them, which we're certainly missing in certain areas at the moment. It might also explain why he retained certain players, knowing he wouldn't be afforded the same wage to replace them?

Coxside_Green wrote:

GreenSam wrote:

Greenjock wrote:

Not unless we ship a couple out.

If we could offload Chadwick, Lennox, Sims and Copp, highly unlikely I know but we have far too big a squad to get anyone in I should think.

Trust me we don't want to offload Sims and Copp. They're gonna be proper players in the future, big time.

Chadwick I agree. Lennox I think can be a decent squad option but I wouldn't exactly shed tears if he left. Jed Harper Penman, Vassell and maybe Chenoweth are different kettles of fish. If we shifted those 5, and perhaps Feeney too (but kept Copp and Sims for the future, we won't regret it if we do), we could have a lot more money avalible to sign some top quality League 2 players. That, I think is Fletcher's big mistake. Signing too many players instead of signing fewer, but better players.

I'm just curious how you can be so sure we've ended up with quantity over quality and it's all down to Fletch?

A few weeks back Fletch mentioned a salary cap in place and I got the impression he wasn't talking about the well known 55% ruling but more a cap in-house. It would explain why we signed non-league hopefuls, a medical risk, a rival's reject (after only one season) and a keeper who has never made it anywhere. I also remember Brent saying how he wanted to see young players coming through, nothing wrong with that of course but these young players will need experienced players alongside them to get the best out of them, which we're certainly missing in certain areas at the moment. It might also explain why he retained certain players, knowing he wouldn't be afforded the same wage to replace them?

I don't think the size of the budget is a problem at all. I think Brent's genuinely given Fletch quite a big budget to play with. I'll explain why I think that.

Chenoweth, Lennox, Vassell, Harper-Penman, Copp, Sims. None of those will be on much money at all, but every little counts. It all adds up. Jamie Richards- his contract was signed on a three year deal when we were in the Championship so he'll probably be on more than a lot of other youth players put together.
Lecointe and Nelson will be on a bit more than most of the youth players too, Premier League interest and all that.

Chadwick, Wotton, Purse, Blanchard were all signed at saliant points in the season and we were experienced pros of which at least one was in high demand. I'd be surprised if any of them were on less than 4 figure amounts each week. Feeney, Cole, Williams won't be on anything huge but they're all solid pros who will command a fair amount and who at the very least one (Cole) had an offer from another League 2 side. All of those in my opinion will be fairly close to the £1,000 a week mark if not quite there. Berry, Hourihane and Soukouna won't be on a lot, they're young players who weren't highly in demand. However, they were signed when we badly needed bodies so I doubt they're on pennies either. Yes Soukouna is gone but we'll inevitably have had to pay him off a little bit at least.

We'll have made contributions to Macca and Gorman's loan wages. I think it's unfair to describe Rene Gilmartin as a keeper who's never made it anywhere. Did decent for Yeovil and Crawley at League One and League 2 level, capped at Ireland youth level too. He'll be on a fair wedge too, probably reasonably close to £1,000.
Lowry, for all his injuries is good when he's fit. That'll be enough to provide him, in my guesswork, a similar wage. Griffiths, despite all the jokes about his former profession, will have lost two former salaries and a career that it seems he was really attached too. He'll be on more than most people think in my opinion.
Gurreri and Cowan-Hall won't be on much money. But Cowan-Hall will have required a fee due to the fact that he was under 24, so it all really does add up.
Our final exhibit is Oni Bhasera- signed his most recent contract just upon relegation from the Championship. Back in the day where Todd was handing out silly contracts left right and centre. As well as the playing staff, we're bound to have an expensive coaching team within their own right. Fletcher and Larrieu both just retired from hefty playing salaries so will be amongst the higher paid manager and assistants in this league. Not to mention a wealth of agent fees and signing on fees.

The response will be that all I have stated will apply to all League 2 sides- I don't think it does. We've got a bigger squad than most League 2 side and I really think a lot of our players will be paid more than a lot of high end League 2 players. I'm not certain on this, I may be wrong but it's the hunch that I have. The more new contracts there are (and there have been a few) also means more and more signing on fees and agent fees. It all tots up.

I like Fletcher, and I've made that pretty clear. I genuinely think him keeping us up last season was an immense acheivment, which I know is something that a lot of people disagree with in itself. But I think this season, he's had a pretty big budget and has spent it on a bloated squad of questionable quality rather than an average sized squad of potentially a lot better quality. The fruits of his decision will be in the results, but I can't help but think he could have spent it a lot better instead of signing players who are unlikely to play, and players who don't play all that well. I hope he turns things around, and I'd love him to do so. I can't help but think he's made things difficult for himself though.

One thing I do beleive though, is that if this season does go tits up, it won't be due to the budget Brent's provided, it'll be the way it's been used.

I would agree with all of that on the whole Sam, but I still think JB has over egged the "capable of promotion" budget. It will be one of the leagues bigger budgets but not on a par with what it could be with our attendances.

I do agree that Fletcher has signed a bloated squad of average, or even poor in some cases, players. Many of which seem to be desperate attempts to fill as many positions as possible, without signing anyone good enough to make themselves absolute certain starters.

I'm talking about Gurrieri, PCH, Gorman, Lennox, when we could have signed two decent players and released a couple like Harper-Penman and Vassell, when we have brighter prospects like LeCointe, Sims and Copp.

I hope I'm proved wrong when he's finally fit, but I think Lowry is another jack of all trades, but master of none.

Time will tell but our squad is huge and I don't think there are many clubs eyeing our players enviously!

Greenjock wrote:

I would agree with all of that on the whole Sam, but I still think JB has over egged the "capable of promotion" budget. It will be one of the leagues bigger budgets but not on a par with what it could be with our attendances.

I do agree that Fletcher has signed a bloated squad of average, or even poor in some cases, players. Many of which seem to be desperate attempts to fill as many positions as possible, without signing anyone good enough to make themselves absolute certain starters.

I'm talking about Gurrieri, PCH, Gorman, Lennox, when we could have signed two decent players and released a couple like Harper-Penman and Vassell, when we have brighter prospects like LeCointe, Sims and Copp.

I hope I'm proved wrong when he's finally fit, but I think Lowry is another jack of all trades, but master of none.

Time will tell but our squad is huge and I don't think there are many clubs eyeing our players enviously!

Good post on the whole, one of the few bits I disagree with is JB overegging the capable of promotion budget.

If we say a "play-off budget" is equatable to "contending for promotion" then I think that's a fair comment. I'd be surprised personally if we aren't in the top 7 budgets in the league. But maybe I'm wrong.

Heard a lot of good stuff about Lowry fit too, but only time will tell there.

GreenSam wrote:

Coxside_Green wrote:

GreenSam wrote:

Greenjock wrote:

Not unless we ship a couple out.

If we could offload Chadwick, Lennox, Sims and Copp, highly unlikely I know but we have far too big a squad to get anyone in I should think.

Trust me we don't want to offload Sims and Copp. They're gonna be proper players in the future, big time.

Chadwick I agree. Lennox I think can be a decent squad option but I wouldn't exactly shed tears if he left. Jed Harper Penman, Vassell and maybe Chenoweth are different kettles of fish. If we shifted those 5, and perhaps Feeney too (but kept Copp and Sims for the future, we won't regret it if we do), we could have a lot more money avalible to sign some top quality League 2 players. That, I think is Fletcher's big mistake. Signing too many players instead of signing fewer, but better players.

I'm just curious how you can be so sure we've ended up with quantity over quality and it's all down to Fletch?

A few weeks back Fletch mentioned a salary cap in place and I got the impression he wasn't talking about the well known 55% ruling but more a cap in-house. It would explain why we signed non-league hopefuls, a medical risk, a rival's reject (after only one season) and a keeper who has never made it anywhere. I also remember Brent saying how he wanted to see young players coming through, nothing wrong with that of course but these young players will need experienced players alongside them to get the best out of them, which we're certainly missing in certain areas at the moment. It might also explain why he retained certain players, knowing he wouldn't be afforded the same wage to replace them?

I don't think the size of the budget is a problem at all. I think Brent's genuinely given Fletch quite a big budget to play with.

Where did I say anything about the size of budget?

My argument was clearly about wages (salary cap) afforded to future signings (inclusive of the summer signings).

Wages is budget though, or at least a very large part of it. The wages that Brent allows Fletch to spend is quite a lot of the budget. Maybe we're getting confused by semantics but I view what you've said (wages, the salary cap that Brent has allowed Fletch to spend on signings wages) to be part of the budget.

Ok, so a lot of the players weren't signed this Summer, therefore it does to an extent not answer your argument about new salaries, but I don't think that contradicts the point that Brent is being reasonable with the salaries he's allowed to be spent. With the big amounts that we're (I summise) spending on players, there has to be an amount of prudency to avoid huge losses.

Whichever way I look at it, I have to say Brent has come out of it fairly well. I think he's provided a fair amount for spending without being excessive to the point of reckless. Apologies for the lack of clarity.

I'll start with apologising for my lack of clarity too, I'm older but should know better too

Now we're on a level...

Of course wages are a budget but as most managers will tell you, you have to keep asking. When was the last time you knew exactly a budget from any club?. It's talk, hot air, crap, nonsense. All we can do is read between the lines.

Our signings this summer have been from lower places. In short, we have not signed one single player this summer whom we could expect to give us a half decent season. If we're lucky 1 or 2 might excel. In that case the business plan is to sell them. We can't possibly keep them while we owe so much?

Meanwhile we have healthy attendance figures compared to our rivals. Healthy crowds should also mean healthy commercial sales. I'm gonna stop here Sam.

hairy j wrote:

According to Leigh Crapson, Chadwick is going - his contract will be terminated and he'll be paid off. He heard it from a good source.

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For fucks sake....
This is what he actually wrote:

Leigh Rapson wrote:

Have heard this morning that we are looking to pay Chadders off. Don't know how reliable this is as it has come from a third party.

Coxside_Green wrote:

I'll start with apologising for my lack of clarity too, I'm older but should know better too

Now we're on a level...

Of course wages are a budget but as most managers will tell you, you have to keep asking. When was the last time you knew exactly a budget from any club?. It's talk, hot air, crap, nonsense. All we can do is read between the lines.

Our signings this summer have been from lower places. In short, we have not signed one single player this summer whom we could expect to give us a half decent season. If we're lucky 1 or 2 might excel. In that case the business plan is to sell them. We can't possibly keep them while we owe so much?

Meanwhile we have healthy attendance figures compared to our rivals. Healthy crowds should also mean healthy commercial sales. I'm gonna stop here Sam.

Fair enough! I don't think we're a million miles from agreement in a roundabout way, I think crossed wires got the better of us slightly.

I just don't accept that our budget, including manager and coaches of which we have very few, is in the top half of the division. The results would surely be better? Other teams have young pros too which wouldn't be part of their core squad, and half the team are so shyte they signed for us not knowing they would be paid last summer. Perhaps it is if you include the back payments which Brent promised to pay off when he took over. Given the level of interest he's put into the land he's acquired, I'm peeved that he didn't sort that on taking over as he'd promised.

Exactly Mock, the budget for our so called over sized squad that may well compares large to some clubs in our division yet average when compared to others, is off set by a substantial lack of coaching and management staff as well as a million and one other things that the club is so obviously lacking in, from the shop to the ground staff.

I can now only accept that Brent has provided a budget suitable for at best survival in the FL, nothing more.

As per the usual, there are some that allow themselves to be sucked in by the propaganda of others and some that see straight through the BS.

Its rumoured that our playing budget is close to £1m, I think the biggest (Fleetwood, Bradford etc) is around £1.5m, but most clubs in League 2 are around £6 - 700k (Exeter, Aldershot etc).

I agree with Jock's point that we have a large squad of mainly average/ below average players and it would be better to have a smaller squad of better quality.