Should we press for/have a vote against having PASB?

Penz I travel around the country a lot by Rail and Bus and you could say I know the ins and outs having used these methods of transport for over 50 years following Argyle.This ticket deal aint that good.

oddball wrote:

Those buses aint such a good deal though.They aint free anymore,nor would a donation be sufficient.If you miss the bus on the way home,and boy do they leave sharpish then I believe vyou have lost your money as the tickets are non transferable.Although they dont mention that.Much better value to be had if going to Argyle by bus is a dayrider ticket which gives you more flexibilty.Buses would be convenient for midweek matches but again no mention of that.

Al, you should know by now, nothing in life is free. With the season not starting until 8 weeks tomorrow now is the time to see if the timetable can be changed from 1700 to, say, 1710. All it needs is someone to approach Keith Bulley or maybe the Trust could make some enquiries. These days it's not uncommon for a game to go on until five to five.

oddball wrote:

Penz I travel around the country a lot by Rail and Bus and you could say I know the ins and outs having used these methods of transport for over 50 years following Argyle.This ticket deal aint that good.

That was my point Odders ... it certainly ain't a good deal.
When Football specials have run, which they have done for most of Argyle's post war past, they were always a reasonable deal. Not anymore. Four people could get a private taxi in and out from Plympton for less money than this.

Penz wrote:

oddball wrote:

Penz I travel around the country a lot by Rail and Bus and you could say I know the ins and outs having used these methods of transport for over 50 years following Argyle.This ticket deal aint that good.

That was my point Odders ... it certainly ain't a good deal.
When Football specials have run, which they have done for most of Argyle's post war past, they were always a reasonable deal. Not anymore. Four people could get a private taxi in and out from Plympton for less money than this.

As someone who doesn't use buses I can't comment on the VFM of the bus deal but would you really get a taxi of 4 people from Plympton to the game and back for £12?

Penz wrote:

A bit of a hoot that .... god bless the new Citybus.
It reminds me of that doyen of Pasoti and financial advisor to Kagami, when he proudly anounced negotiated match day train fares to Home Park up from Cornwall, that were actually no cheaper than a ticket fans could purchase with a railcard.
Everything is sold as a bargain these days.

Not sure if it's still the case, but a few years back the last train back to Penzance on weekdays used to leave Plymouth at 21.50, so for home games on Tuesday nights which finish at 21.35 at the earliest, you had the choice of leaving early, or running like Usain Bolt as soon as the match finished. For the sake of ten minutes it was totally stupid. I worked for a train company back then and tried to get backing from the club to put pressure on FGW to rethink their timetable slightly. Needless to say the club weren't interested. They could have explained that there were many Cornish supporters who would use the service if it was ten minutes or so later, but they showed no interest when I contacted them.

Greenjock wrote:

tonycholwell wrote:

For the sake of brevity Tringy I will not quote the whole of your post or indeed mine.

"For your part, you have always been willing to debate with me and I trust that your intentions are genuine and that you truly believe you can help the club progress.
Only time will tell I suppose and if it makes you feel good, why not ?"

My intentions are always genuine as I cant be bothered doing other than that and Ive always enjoyed our tussles, which have normally been good tempered.

I do believe I have the skills to help hold the Board to account and in doing so progress.

Oh and to Mock, he is right, Cholwell is in NE Somerset which if you look under my screen name you will see it says NE Somerset:)

We call that a clue!

Is Cholwell far from Yate Tony? My mate runs Stanshawe Court, big pub in Yate, next week they have an evening with Gordon Banks there. Not going myself, if it was someone decent like Alan Rough I would.

Phew, this could get confusing, but bear with me.

Yate is about 20 miles north of me and Stanshawe Court I know quite well as Ive been to a weedding there and my step son used to live about 100yards away and we oftten called in for a pint. He and his family are coming for lunch Sunday, I'll see what he knows and if we can still get tickets.

Thanks for telling me.

ps most prominent business in Cholwell is the nursing home which specialises in dementia, although you may have forgotten that by now:)

pps If I mention your name will I get discount??

tonycholwell wrote:

Greenjock wrote:

tonycholwell wrote:

For the sake of brevity Tringy I will not quote the whole of your post or indeed mine.

"For your part, you have always been willing to debate with me and I trust that your intentions are genuine and that you truly believe you can help the club progress.
Only time will tell I suppose and if it makes you feel good, why not ?"

My intentions are always genuine as I cant be bothered doing other than that and Ive always enjoyed our tussles, which have normally been good tempered.

I do believe I have the skills to help hold the Board to account and in doing so progress.

Oh and to Mock, he is right, Cholwell is in NE Somerset which if you look under my screen name you will see it says NE Somerset:)

We call that a clue!

Is Cholwell far from Yate Tony? My mate runs Stanshawe Court, big pub in Yate, next week they have an evening with Gordon Banks there. Not going myself, if it was someone decent like Alan Rough I would.

Phew, this could get confusing, but bear with me.

Yate is about 20 miles north of me and Stanshawe Court I know quite well as Ive been to a weedding there and my step son used to live about 100yards away and we oftten called in for a pint. He and his family are coming for lunch Sunday, I'll see what he knows and if we can still get tickets.

Thanks for telling me.

ps most prominent business in Cholwell is the nursing home which specialises in dementia, although you may have forgotten that by now:)

pps If I mention your name will I get discount??

If you ask for Paul or John and say Jock told you about it, they'll probably say Oh cool . It's on Saturday 30th and they have a normal ticket and a VIP one, but I don't know what extra you get for your Vippiness.

I looked Cholwell up earlier. I didn't realise how close it is. For some reason I thought it was right next to Bristol. If you're ever driving down to a game and you fancy a passenger to share the fuel costs, I could make it somewhere a bit closer to you. The train journey is a nightmare from here.

Greenjock wrote:

tonycholwell wrote:

Greenjock wrote:

tonycholwell wrote:

For the sake of brevity Tringy I will not quote the whole of your post or indeed mine.

"For your part, you have always been willing to debate with me and I trust that your intentions are genuine and that you truly believe you can help the club progress.
Only time will tell I suppose and if it makes you feel good, why not ?"

My intentions are always genuine as I cant be bothered doing other than that and Ive always enjoyed our tussles, which have normally been good tempered.

I do believe I have the skills to help hold the Board to account and in doing so progress.

Oh and to Mock, he is right, Cholwell is in NE Somerset which if you look under my screen name you will see it says NE Somerset:)

We call that a clue!

Is Cholwell far from Yate Tony? My mate runs Stanshawe Court, big pub in Yate, next week they have an evening with Gordon Banks there. Not going myself, if it was someone decent like Alan Rough I would.

Phew, this could get confusing, but bear with me.

Yate is about 20 miles north of me and Stanshawe Court I know quite well as Ive been to a weedding there and my step son used to live about 100yards away and we oftten called in for a pint. He and his family are coming for lunch Sunday, I'll see what he knows and if we can still get tickets.

Thanks for telling me.

ps most prominent business in Cholwell is the nursing home which specialises in dementia, although you may have forgotten that by now:)

pps If I mention your name will I get discount??

If you ask for Paul or John and say Jock told you about it, they'll probably say Oh cool . It's on Saturday 30th and they have a normal ticket and a VIP one, but I don't know what extra you get for your Vippiness.

I looked Cholwell up earlier. I didn't realise how close it is. For some reason I thought it was right next to Bristol. If you're ever driving down to a game and you fancy a passenger to share the fuel costs, I could make it somewhere a bit closer to you. The train journey is a nightmare from here.

Jock, I frequently have passengers and am always glad for 1 more. Being a ST holder (membership) I attend every home game and do a fair few away.

We are 10 miles from Bristol, Bath and Wells and you are right, the train is a nightmare, I looked into it 2 years ago and realised it was cheaper to buy a house.

If you are serious, send a pm and I'll give you my mobile number.

Question for Tony: on the other site, why did you feel the need to use the word 'puppet' with reference to the Trust's offer to help people get enough signatures to be nominated? It's a low blow that smacks of the tactics being used by Leigh Rapson and his cronies.

The Trust isn't putting forward a slate (sadly, in my opinion): all they're doing is recognising that twenty signatures is a a lot to get, especially in the close season and especially when the nomination forms weren't circulated properly (and putting it on the official site with only a week to go isn't that helpful, either). In other words, they're only trying to help candidates who might not be well known on the internet, and trying to make sure there's a broad spread for the electorate to choose from.

While I'm at it, I think supporters of the 'more representative' argument for the GASBoard should stop and think about how exactly a group which is only elected by ST holders/members is 'more representative' of the fanbase than the Trust, membership of which is open to anybody who wants to join. I could make a similar case against the 'more inclusive' argument, too (tokenism usually turns out to be just that).

Still. The divide and rule tactics are definitely working.

Peggy

I'll be watching the results with interest. James Brent has identified 20000 stakeholders in Plymouth Argyle and argued the Trusts 1200 members is to narrow a representation. Now the voting system deliberately limits to 3000 odd ballot papers. It's going to need at least half those people to vote for it to get anywhere near to trumping the Trust let alone giving to blowing its representation out of the water (and of course the Trust has to rely on an active financial and physical opt in).

It's good to see the supporters groups being held to task. And I like to think ATD have done well to keep pressing the point about how nonsense the proposal to nominate a GasBoard member is and the need for transparency (ie membership numbers, constitution, and financial position) from a group demanding trańsparency from the Board.

As an aside Tony often casually uses words with a sting in the tail - you can see them looking back on this thread - it's in contrast to the new cuddly Tony being presented in the elections

Peggy wrote:

Question for Tony: on the other site, why did you feel the need to use the word 'puppet' with reference to the Trust's offer to help people get enough signatures to be nominated? It's a low blow that smacks of the tactics being used by Leigh Rapson and his cronies.

The Trust isn't putting forward a slate (sadly, in my opinion): all they're doing is recognising that twenty signatures is a a lot to get, especially in the close season and especially when the nomination forms weren't circulated properly (and putting it on the official site with only a week to go isn't that helpful, either). In other words, they're only trying to help candidates who might not be well known on the internet, and trying to make sure there's a broad spread for the electorate to choose from.

While I'm at it, I think supporters of the 'more representative' argument for the GASBoard should stop and think about how exactly a group which is only elected by ST holders/members is 'more representative' of the fanbase than the Trust, membership of which is open to anybody who wants to join. I could make a similar case against the 'more inclusive' argument, too (tokenism usually turns out to be just that).

Still. The divide and rule tactics are definitely working.

Peggy, 20 signatures if you live in Plymouth should be a breeze, try living 125 miles away. If you live in the City and can't get 20 perhaps you ought to consider if standing for an election is right for you.

As I have said elsewhere, I am not the only candidate but most others seem to want to keep it a secret. In the circumstances I'll wait until they volunteer or are declared so that you can all question them to create a fair playing field. Id hate to be the only one asked questions

However, it is difficult to see people who had no apparent desire to stand 11 days before the closing date, all conclude it would be good idea to stand as the Trust will arrrange their nominations for them. By implication they will only be Trust members, it then begs the question what else do the Trust propose to do for their waifs and strays? Write their 100 words? Pay for their campaign? The phrase the Trust use is "to help ensure the objectives of the Trust are furthered as the supervisory board develops".

Perhaps if I had used the word "Delegate" you may have approved. Either way, this was not a call to encourage independent minded people to join the process and be more representertive. It was a call to narrow the appeal to "the objectives of the Trust" This was not a call for more representertive candidates, this was a call for more foot soldiers to the cause.

ps to Dougie. If you meet me you will know by definition I am cuddly.

There you have it again the Trust apparently deals in 'waifs and strays' whilst the GasBoard nominees thus far are 'expertise in certain fields'

By the same argument as Tony's the supporter branches will just be puppets of their respective committees. They certainly won't be representing the broad spectrum of their membership.

Dougie wrote:

There you have it again the Trust apparently deals in 'waifs and strays' whilst the GasBoard nominees thus far are 'expertise in certain fields'

By the same argument as Tony's the supporter branches will just be puppets of their respective committees. They certainly won't be representing the broad spectrum of their membership.

I dont wish to be provacative Dougie, but most of the supporters places will be in the gift of the Trust.

Now, if you think like me that everyone should be elected by one constituency vote, I'm right with you.

If the Trust assists its members in getting the 20 signatures then so what? The Trust exists purely and solely to represent those members and their interests. I'd say it is entirely proper for them to assist members should they wish to stand as individuals and would be quite wrong for them not to at least offer do so. Exactly the same applies to the other associations where the members may be Senior, Cornish, live in London or whatever. If you were a London-based fan wouldn't it be a natural thought to contact PASALB, for instance?

This highlights the deepest flaw of all in the PASB concept. Not only do the various associations get to nominate their rep but the same associations can effectively double-up on representation by other individuals within those organisations standing independently. This is just one tip of the many headed iceberg given that the same people in all likelihood will be casting votes in their capacities as a season ticket holder, PASALB member, Senior Green, PACSA member, Disabled Green or whatever.

Of those notional 20000 stake holders how many will actually vote in the end and how many of those votes cast will be cast by people voting more than once? It is a democratic sham that a third world despot would baulk at as being too nakedly undemocratic. Suggesting that the 1200 Trust members who each cast only one vote makes the Trust a less representative body is such obvious pure, transparent idiocy that I can't believe that anybody is seriously suggesting it.

Gift of the Trust? Really?

Given what they been subjected to it would be a miracle if there influence made that much reach.

Actually thinking about it if the Trust did garner such influence it would say one thing and one thing only and that is that the GasBoard is not wanted or needed. So maybe this is just getting ones excuses in early.

The one constituency one vote is interesting. As it is no one at the meetings seems to have made the point strongly if at all. So much for experts in their field. See The Prof and The President are still trying to wrangle and herd up the supporters groups to get some semblance of interest and engagement. It's been handed to them on a plate and they still can't be bothered.

tonycholwell wrote:

Peggy wrote:

Question for Tony: on the other site, why did you feel the need to use the word 'puppet' with reference to the Trust's offer to help people get enough signatures to be nominated? It's a low blow that smacks of the tactics being used by Leigh Rapson and his cronies.

The Trust isn't putting forward a slate (sadly, in my opinion): all they're doing is recognising that twenty signatures is a a lot to get, especially in the close season and especially when the nomination forms weren't circulated properly (and putting it on the official site with only a week to go isn't that helpful, either). In other words, they're only trying to help candidates who might not be well known on the internet, and trying to make sure there's a broad spread for the electorate to choose from.

While I'm at it, I think supporters of the 'more representative' argument for the GASBoard should stop and think about how exactly a group which is only elected by ST holders/members is 'more representative' of the fanbase than the Trust, membership of which is open to anybody who wants to join. I could make a similar case against the 'more inclusive' argument, too (tokenism usually turns out to be just that).

Still. The divide and rule tactics are definitely working.

Peggy, 20 signatures if you live in Plymouth should be a breeze, try living 125 miles away. If you live in the City and can't get 20 perhaps you ought to consider if standing for an election is right for you.

As I have said elsewhere, I am not the only candidate but most others seem to want to keep it a secret. In the circumstances I'll wait until they volunteer or are declared so that you can all question them to create a fair playing field. Id hate to be the only one asked questions

However, it is difficult to see people who had no apparent desire to stand 11 days before the closing date, all conclude it would be good idea to stand as the Trust will arrrange their nominations for them. By implication they will only be Trust members, it then begs the question what else do the Trust propose to do for their waifs and strays? Write their 100 words? Pay for their campaign? The phrase the Trust use is "to help ensure the objectives of the Trust are furthered as the supervisory board develops".

Perhaps if I had used the word "Delegate" you may have approved. Either way, this was not a call to encourage independent minded people to join the process and be more representertive. It was a call to narrow the appeal to "the objectives of the Trust" This was not a call for more representertive candidates, this was a call for more foot soldiers to the cause.

ps to Dougie. If you meet me you will know by definition I am cuddly.

Re the bit in bold, I strongly disagree. A lot depends on where (and if) you work, and whether or not you use the internet. Not to mention the difficulty of contacting people you might only know from matchdays during the close season.

You're right: I'd have no problem with calling people 'delegates' - that's what the supporters' groups have got, after all. But you're digging yourself further in it with your notions of 'independent minded people' versus 'foot soldiers'. The Trust is made up of independent minded people, and this isn't a party political exercise.

Not that I should be expressing any opinion on any of this, since - thanks at least in part to salsa verde - I have no vote.

you're collateral damage Peggy just collateral damage

Peggy wrote:

Not that I should be expressing any opinion on any of this, since - thanks at least in part to salsa verde - I have no vote.

And that, Peggy, is a very important point. I, too, will have no vote due to not not wanting to join a club or get a loyalty card etc etc.... just not my scene. Forget the fact that up until Ridsdale burst onto the scene with his walking bovver boots, I have had hardly missed a home game from the very day McCauley slung his hook, and my previous to that being pretty impressive too since the early 60s. As ever, the small minded club remains just that, with it's season ticket holders in efect doing the same old same old "part time supporters". This was supposed to have been rectified by the handing out of details at a home LEAGUE REAL game, yet, mysteriously didn't happen.

No doubt, I hang around on a dusty old database at Home park due to being forced to buy the occasional ticket in advance due to demand, but apart from that, I'm nowhere. It's a bit like those that never buy anything on credit and therefore having a disastrous credit rating ... nasty shifty people, obviously not worthy.
And therein lies the problem. It has been said many times that the reasoning for the six 'unelected' places is to ensure a wide as possible representation. It has also somehow been agreed by those trying to impress Jamesyboy, that the Argyle fan constituency is some 20,000.
Well, the qualifying franchise for this fiasco leaves out 80% of that 20,000 Argyle diaspora... so I guess they just don't count either. Great work by the prof, I must say. Remind me not to live under any democracy where he has a technical say in drawing up it's constitution .. card carrying party members only.

The matchday handout was the obvious and best way to reach out to fans but for whatever reason it failed to happen. I think the fallback plan was to hand out the slips at the Manchester United legends game which is the only opportunity that has popped up since so expect plenty of middle aged Mancunian interest to be represented in the end result. Given the timetabling of this shambolic venture they could do little else. I would tentatively suggest that people like Penz don't want to be reached out to and enjoy their outsider status. If they are reached out to then they probably don't want to vote at all because the names on the form will mean little to most of them or like me they might think that the whole plan is a divisive and undemocratic sham proposed only to undermine and neuter the Trust, emasculate any voice the supporters as a whole might ever have before it gets too loud to ignore and provide opportunities for a bunch of nodding donkeys to inflate the bubble of their own self importance by getting their snouts in the nosebag to no good end result and so refuse to vote anyway. Sorry I rambled on a bit there. We should not be trying to create this sodding illusory powercheck in the first place and given that we are we shouldn't be doing it now but given that we are just how could they reach out to the disenfranchised Penzs of this world?

The GasBoard ordination continues apace

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What a triumvirate of posters (including the new spokesperson for Supporters Direct)

You can't fault the consistency of the loyalty can you? Same old posters immediately there in support. Everyone else goes "meh".

Those three posts sum up the whole sorry shambles, nobody else gives a feck.



No doubt Postey will read this and rush off to organise a three line whip.

Expect the multis to pile in soon to a rousing chorus of "look how popular this great idea is".

I see from that thread the Gasboard should welcome the input of experts in their field as long as they are the right kind of experts in their field

Greenjock wrote:

tonycholwell wrote:

Greenjock wrote:

tonycholwell wrote:

For the sake of brevity Tringy I will not quote the whole of your post or indeed mine.

"For your part, you have always been willing to debate with me and I trust that your intentions are genuine and that you truly believe you can help the club progress.
Only time will tell I suppose and if it makes you feel good, why not ?"

My intentions are always genuine as I cant be bothered doing other than that and Ive always enjoyed our tussles, which have normally been good tempered.

I do believe I have the skills to help hold the Board to account and in doing so progress.

Oh and to Mock, he is right, Cholwell is in NE Somerset which if you look under my screen name you will see it says NE Somerset:)

We call that a clue!

Is Cholwell far from Yate Tony? My mate runs Stanshawe Court, big pub in Yate, next week they have an evening with Gordon Banks there. Not going myself, if it was someone decent like Alan Rough I would.

Phew, this could get confusing, but bear with me.

Yate is about 20 miles north of me and Stanshawe Court I know quite well as Ive been to a weedding there and my step son used to live about 100yards away and we oftten called in for a pint. He and his family are coming for lunch Sunday, I'll see what he knows and if we can still get tickets.

Thanks for telling me.

ps most prominent business in Cholwell is the nursing home which specialises in dementia, although you may have forgotten that by now:)

pps If I mention your name will I get discount??

If you ask for Paul or John and say Jock told you about it, they'll probably say Oh cool . It's on Saturday 30th and they have a normal ticket and a VIP one, but I don't know what extra you get for your Vippiness.

I looked Cholwell up earlier. I didn't realise how close it is. For some reason I thought it was right next to Bristol. If you're ever driving down to a game and you fancy a passenger to share the fuel costs, I could make it somewhere a bit closer to you. The train journey is a nightmare from here.

Jock, do you live in Yate?