Good luck Ollie !

mouldyoldgoat wrote:

Oh bugger!

I have just remembered Knecht is now a Mod.

Only joking Knecht, Sir!

Here to serve.

knecht wrote:

The trouble is that "the historical argument" actually spans several different boards going back many (can't be bothered to count) years. As soon as you bring in the likes of Malcolm Allison to illustrate your point you have to step far away from blaming Paul Stapleton.

The next thing that someone will say it is all down to the "Janner mentality".

No,i don't really think you understand the point i was trying to make.Stapleton [or rather what he represented,ie the patrician local businessman/professional director] is very much part of the historical argument and is the common denominator in the clubs failure to achieve what all other cities [and smaller] have achieved over the years.Essentially,Holloway is Allison is Rae is Pulis is Brown is Waiters is Smith etc,etc in that,given a fair wind and reasonable finacial backing,there is no possible way that at least one of those managers [probably all of them] would not have taken Argyle to the top level.But they weren't given competittive backing,were they? I've got a biography of Malcom Allison and there is a fairly detailed account of his time at Argyle,very interesting it is too.I won't go into the more personal aspects ,suffice to quote John Newman,who i'm sure you'll agree was a highly respected figure at the club and whose viewpoint deserves very serious consideration;

"We didn't have quite enough player-wise to finish it off,we didn't have the finance.You get to a position where you think that if we could just get in a couple of players in now it would make a difference.Mal tried his hardest but it didn't quite come off".

Tie that in with Smithy's comments in the "Ciderman" thread and the real reasons why Pulis and Holloway left and i hope you can begin to see where i'm coming from.The pork butcher is no longer running Burnley,the guest house owner Blackpool or the solicitor Reading.It's nothing personal against Stapes or his predecessors,it really isn't,they just aren't up to it,never have been and never will.

OK. It does seem as though it is the patrician local businessman who has run the club - unlike others who have gone on to success. That much is accurate.

I actually don't know the clubs who have brought in the money men to finance their rise but who has actually failed anyway.

What I don't understand is, if it is right that Stapes & his predecessors weren't up to it, why that might be the case. Why haven't we either brought a bigger investor here or why haven't we had more capable owners?

I will start by saying that there is still no guarantees that any of the previous managers would have achieved the premiership or top division although I take the point that it may well have happened if a chance was taken.

I accept that there has always been a lack of ambition to some degree with Argyle Boards. Prudence with some and plain too tight to give it a go with some others. My stance however comes from what I've already stated in that my own personal dealings have always contained a live within your means element and I find it hard therefore to criticise others for doing the same thing. It has to be said that Stapleton did look for further investment. There would not have been a Japanese involvement had he not. The problem was that he looked in the wrong direction and the punt taken turned out to be the wrong one. Failure on his or their part, as he wasn't the only share holder, to check it out properly or be singing from the same hymn sheet as the people brought in. That is his crime along with ignoring the signs when it must have been obvious things were going wrong financially and especially several Accountants being on the Board. Had they taken the offer from the local contingent then who knows it might have been enough to at least get there. Problem being is we will never know now just like the promotion punt with previous managers.

The problem today is that you need a very very wealthy owner to go places. Blackburn bought the title, Fulham went from obscurity to the premiership on the back of millions spent when you could in the lower leagues which others could not compete with, Chelsea bought the title, Man City bought the title. The list goes on but the common denominator is the wealth of the backers. Some have got there by almost accident like Blackpool but they cannot sustain it for long and we are back to the mega buck owner again. Will we ever get one? Wish I could say yes to that but I have doubts.

knecht wrote:

OK. It does seem as though it is the patrician local businessman who has run the club - unlike others who have gone on to success. That much is accurate.

I actually don't know the clubs who have brought in the money men to finance their rise but who has actually failed anyway.

What I don't understand is, if it is right that Stapes & his predecessors weren't up to it, why that might be the case. Why haven't we either brought a bigger investor here or why haven't we had more capable owners?

Now,that is the $64000 question.Maybe the folllowing could go some way towards an answer;

a.Nobody outside of the locality is interested in the club due to it's geographical location

b.The lack of really big private finance in the Plymouth/Devon/Cornwall district [with the area's historic reliance on military and tourist sectors being a prime factor in this] has precluded serious investment both in the team and infrastructure of the club

c. A real,look under every stone,search for investors or finance carried out by professionals with expertise in advertising and marketing has never been contemplated

d.In relation to c above,the trappings and social status which directorship may bring possibly encourage a complacent and sideways thinking attitude at boardroom level

I honestly don't know why Argyle seem to present an unattractive proposition to potential investors,perhaps the above points could be a starting point for a discussion.It certainly seems to be a deep rooted,long standing problem.

c. A real,look under every stone,search for investors or finance carried out by professionals with expertise in advertising and marketing has never been contemplated

d.In relation to c above,the trappings and social status which directorship may bring possibly encourage a complacent and sideways thinking attitude at boardroom level


It's now moved one step further with local, supposed tribal leaders, wearing silly hats and advising a tight arsed owner to buy big flags.

Look how far we've come !

It doesn't bode well for the future does it.Same old same old only this time in the boardroom.Greenskin,quite a good summing up of events over the years and one that I completely agree with.So village.

Sensiblegreeny wrote:

I will start by saying that there is still no guarantees that any of the previous managers would have achieved the premiership or top division although I take the point that it may well have happened if a chance was taken.

I accept that there has always been a lack of ambition to some degree with Argyle Boards. Prudence with some and plain too tight to give it a go with some others. My stance however comes from what I've already stated in that my own personal dealings have always contained a live within your means element and I find it hard therefore to criticise others for doing the same thing. It has to be said that Stapleton did look for further investment. There would not have been a Japanese involvement had he not. The problem was that he looked in the wrong direction and the punt taken turned out to be the wrong one. Failure on his or their part, as he wasn't the only share holder, to check it out properly or be singing from the same hymn sheet as the people brought in. That is his crime along with ignoring the signs when it must have been obvious things were going wrong financially and especially several Accountants being on the Board. Had they taken the offer from the local contingent then who knows it might have been enough to at least get there. Problem being is we will never know now just like the promotion punt with previous managers.

The problem today is that you need a very very wealthy owner to go places. Blackburn bought the title, Fulham went from obscurity to the premiership on the back of millions spent when you could in the lower leagues which others could not compete with, Chelsea bought the title, Man City bought the title. The list goes on but the common denominator is the wealth of the backers. Some have got there by almost accident like Blackpool but they cannot sustain it for long and we are back to the mega buck owner again. Will we ever get one? Wish I could say yes to that but I have doubts.

I would challenge this comment.

Stapleton (and others) sold some of their shares to Kagami-either for personal financial gain or to spread the risk should the club hit the financial buffers. If he/they had wanted to bolster the football team could have sold Kagami their shares for a nominal sum and made sure the rest of the money went direct into PAFC's Bank account rather than their own. It came down to a choice between a holiday home at Slapton or a new midfielder and the house won.

Kagami, didn't put any money into the football club at the time he bought into it. It was never a question of "Overseas investor pumps money into football club to finance new player purchases"

As I pointed out at the time, Kagami wasn't interested in football-he never saw a game-he was into property.

JB at least goes along with the pretence that he's now interested in football.