Poor Financial Health

There is an article on the BBC football website regarding the financial health of the football league. Apparently the Administrators of Port Vale carried out a survey of clubs outside the premier league and their findings are not particularly shocking but worthy of note.

There are 13 clubs within the 3 leagues that are either in serious financial trouble or are showing signs of finacial distress. These are clubs with court action being taken against them or who have failed to submit their accounts for the last financial year. 3 clubs from the Championship, 6 clubs from league 1 and 4 from league 2. The thought is that the sale of next season's season tickets will stave off immediate problems for some of them but it will only mask the problem which is likely not to go away.

The main problem for clubs it is stated is player wages which clubs continue to pay that they cannot afford. They do not have the income to sustain what they pay and have no financial moneypit of an owner who can pump money into the club or is willing to do so presumably. In other words they are all living way beyond their means and it seems likely that the proverbial shit will hit the fan at some point fairly soon.

Given the clamour for Argyle to throw money at the footballing side which it doesn't have to increase the entertainment value of a ticket, what are the thoughts of people given what is said in this report. Wise to follow the pack who are likely to go into meltdown sometime soon or wise not to and live within their means and not risk disappearing?

Coming up next Turkey farmers give the thumbs up to Christmas.

Sensiblegreeny wrote:

There is an article on the BBC football website regarding the financial health of the football league. Apparently the Administrators of Port Vale carried out a survey of clubs outside the premier league and their findings are not particularly shocking but worthy of not.

There are 13 clubs within the 3 leagues that are either in serious financial trouble or are showing signs of finacial distress. These are clubs with court action being taken against them or who have failed to submit their accounts for the last financial year. 3 clubs from the Championship, 6 clubs from league 1 and 4 from league 2. The thought is that the sale of next season's season tickets will stave off immediate problems for some of them but it will only mask the problem which is likely not to go away.

The main problem for clubs it is stated is player wages which clubs continue to pay that they cannot afford. They do not have the income to sustain what they pay and have no financial moneypit of an owner who can pump money into the club or is willing to do so presumably. In other words they are all living way beyond their means and it seems likely that the proverbial shit will hit the fan at some point fairly soon.

Given the clamour for Argyle to throw money at the footballing side which it doesn't have to increase the entertainment value of a ticket, what are the thoughts of people given what is said in this report. Wise to follow the pack who are likely to go into meltdown sometime soon or wise not to and live within their means and not risk disappearing?

How do you define the phrase "living within your means" and its relevance to Argyle,bearing in mind that Mr Brent has stated in public that financial support will be provided to get the club back to the CCC?

It's not player's wages that are the problem but dubious club owners who know they can gamble with the club's future in an attempt to reach whichever pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. The so-called problem of unaffordable players wages would soon disappear if club owners were to become personally accountable for club debts, instead they get to walk away scot free.

I see ownership of a football club as a prestige position, you do it because you enjoy it, not solely because you want to make money from it. From time to time the club is going to need further financial input whether to avoid relegation or a promotion push, the money is generally repaid through higher than normal attendances or when higher league status is achieved and the club can be sold on for profit. If an owner isn't prepared to put money in occasionally and risk losses when required then he has no business owning that club.

Players wages might not be the number one problem in somecases, but is certainly the problem throughout the leagues.

OK pie in the sky dreams got Argyle into administration.....but from there onwards wages became like a lead weight because of relegation twice from the Championship level.

The off loading of players because of their contracts ending,not because of their ability level was a necessity,and players we would normally resign on a new contract where pushed out the door, because of their high wage level which was well beyond the division we found ourselves playing in.

Even now we've got Fletcher,Walton and Larrieu on Championship wages,that is because they had another season left on their contracts.....and paying them off was beyond are means

ZYPH wrote:

Players wages might not be the number one problem in somecases, but is certainly the problem throughout the leagues.

OK pie in the sky dreams got Argyle into administration.....but from there onwards wages became like a lead weight because of relegation twice from the Championship level.

The off loading of players because of their contracts ending,not because of their ability level was a necessity,and players we would normally resign on a new contract where pushed out the door, because of their high wage level which was well beyond the division we found ourselves playing in.

Even now we've got Fletcher,Walton and Larrieu on Championship wages,that is because they had another season left on their contracts.....and paying them off was beyond are means

The pie in the sky dreams were Stapleton's attempt at keeping his finger in the pie for his very modest investment. We were outclassed financially as soon as we got back to the 2nd tier. The club needed real investment but they refused at least one offer and never considered promoting the potential of England's 13th largest city club and finding a football orientated owner. If they were the fans they claimed to be the club would have been relatively cheap to buy and with gates of 16k for a club that has never been to the top flight, the sleeping giant was ripe for an awakening.
The high salaries for crap players after Holloway was crazy.

To play the Devils advocate, what would have happened if England had won the hosting of the World Cup and Home Park the hosting of World Cup matches?

The evidence last week from the football league was that Championship attendences were in the decline and a majority of clubs were living beyond there means,sounds familiar does'nt it?.Therefore not convinced That Brents stated aim to get us back into the Championship is a real one or we should go for it.Really do think at the moment that Argyle would be safer in league 1 for a few seasons keeping financially safe and offering us as fans some reasonable fare for our £20.Of course we have to get there yet.

akagreengull wrote:

The evidence last week from the football league was that Championship attendences were in the decline and a majority of clubs were living beyond there means,sounds familiar does'nt it?.Therefore not convinced That Brents stated aim to get us back into the Championship is a real one or we should go for it.Really do think at the moment that Argyle would be safer in league 1 for a few seasons keeping financially safe and offering us as fans some reasonable fare for our £20.Of course we have to get there yet.

Supporting a club in Div 1, with the potential we have does not inspire me. If you don't try to reach for the stars what is the point?

The avivas used to praise Stapes and criticise Cardiff's spending. I know which story I'd rather have been involved with !

Tringreen wrote:

akagreengull wrote:

The evidence last week from the football league was that Championship attendences were in the decline and a majority of clubs were living beyond there means,sounds familiar does'nt it?.Therefore not convinced That Brents stated aim to get us back into the Championship is a real one or we should go for it.Really do think at the moment that Argyle would be safer in league 1 for a few seasons keeping financially safe and offering us as fans some reasonable fare for our £20.Of course we have to get there yet.

Supporting a club in Div 1, with the potential we have does not inspire me. If you don't try to reach for the stars what is the point?

The avivas used to praise Stapes and criticise Cardiff's spending. I know which story I'd rather have been involved with !

Utter nonsense to suggest that Argyle "should aim to stay in league 1 for a few years".That is far from a safe option.What would happen is that the club would stagnate and attendances would drop which would inevitably lead to a downward spiral should a strict policy of "!living within our means" be applied.The good players would lose interest and leave and we'd be back in the same old cycle again.No,if Argyle do start to make progress,the momentum this time MUST be maintained and the appropriate financial backing found,which Mr Brent,to his credit,has acknowledged.There is absolutely no reason why Argyle should not do a Swansea,Cardiff or Brighton if the right money and boardroom personnel are in place,absolutely none.All the bullshit about geography,apathetic janners etc would then be truly put into perspective-if ambitious players saw that the club really meant business, they'd come here.

BTW,the scenario of clubs being in financial trouble is nothing new and will probably never cease.In Steve Rhodes excellent account of the 1958/9 season [Called "Thanks for the memory"] and the years leading up to it,he describes the horrendous debt incurred by Argyle,quite possibly as bad as the recent one in real terms,until Blindell came along to put things right.Accrington went out of business in 1962,Third Lanark in 1967 and i can remember clubs like Sheffield United,Orient,Chelsea,Luton etc being in a lot of problems in the 1970's.Argyle were within a few minutes of going out of business in 1982,so it ain't a new phenomenon-whats the betting that Pompey will survive and in 5 years time occupy a higher league position than Argyle?

Very well put GS. Whilst history shows different I spent my formative years supporting a second tier club, anytime spent outside of that second tier has been a failure as far as I'm concerned.

Of course we could play the long game (too late for me now) and we'd only have to wait for about 30 clubs to go out of business to regain our previous status...presuming Forest Green and Ebbsfleet etc haven't left us in their wake by then.

I would add that player salaries and power is now a real problem that was not so evident decades ago. You simply can't retain any of your best players/ staff if you have no ambition and the financial clout in the boardroom to back it up.

Newell and Webb have both promised us[ via Brent] austerity ahead and that it is down to the support base to provide the cash. We are already seeing signs that Brent doesn't want to invest his own money. Far from having 'our club', if 2nd tier status is somehow achieved in the years to come, Brent personally will be in position to cash in.Of course, he has lured what he sees as the fans leaders with position and prestige, so that's alright and we should all shut up and follow the flag !
In my opinion , he has to make some effort financially, it will take far too long just to clear HIS debts otherwise and the football club will meanwhile be run by amateurs, part timers and still unable to compete any better than our small time neighbours.

Exciting innit ?

You make a good point there Tring, "HIS debts".

Some good points raised. I guess we are struggling (with squad wages) due to the amount paid to Fletcher, Walton and Damien Johnson (remember him). I thought Larrieu agreed a new contract last season so would be on a reduced salary. We still have the unpaid staff wages albatross hanging around our necks- does the wages owed to ex-players and managers come into the 55% equation?

I think JB realises that the club cannot just live off matchday income and club shop revenue alone (I suppose there's the added bonus of GT support) and Home Park needs to be used on non-matchdays asap.

I would guess clubs like Rochdale and to a lesser extent Exeter are struggling. Rochdale usually have a 2-3k crowd in League one, I imagine they have debts in maintaining L1 football (although they look like they will get relegated this season).

I've just seen this on Twitter about Leeds-

Quote :

LUFC have "entered into an agreement whereby it sold STs for both 2012/13 + 2013/14 season for sum of £5m after yr end" shades of Rangers?

Isn't this what Ridsdale tried doing (at Leeds) with Champion's League revenue?

Just found this on PASOTI... I don't think it 1st April!!!

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Merv Plummmer

Football is full of corrupt owners full stop. The prems biggest club placed into hundreds of £millions debt virtually overnight . Multi-millionaire money launderers. Property developers. Unknown directors. The Ridsdales who seem to have a knack of walking into clubs and getting paid huge salaries regardless of club debts. The multiple different companies associated with various football clubs. I cant say all clubs but I suspect the majority of clubs are being used as cash vehicles in one form or another. The Jack Walkers who genuinely loved their local clubs seem to be a distant memory.

Crippling high player salaries are a convenient get-out clause once the club is in meltdown and it's time to get out with personal wealth intact. An honest well run club shouldn't be affected by relegation as contracts should be drawn up to include relegation clauses, hence we still have players on CCC wages. It's interesting we still have both Fletch and Walton. Fletch was Luggy's first choice but Stapes had other ideas so we ended up with Walton, now we still have both. Luggy has promised to spill the beans with what went on at the club some day, I look forward to that.

With the exception of perhaps the son-in-law and maybe one or 2 others, I dont think our players were particularly highly paid in the CCC, more a case of them being crap, injured, disinterested etc. 5K a week for our record signing is peanuts in the grand scheme of things but a tidy amount to pay someone to sit in the stand game after game. The real issue was trying to do it on the cheap, player after player failed and got replaced leaving us with a squad of up to 35 players who needed paying. Having over half our playing budget doing nothing week after week was always a recipe for disaster. There's a huge difference between throwing money at the team and paying players what they're worth.

GOB wrote:

To play the Devils advocate, what would have happened if England had won the hosting of the World Cup and Home Park the hosting of World Cup matches?

was never going to happen, any one with an ounce of sence could see that!!

The reality of the situation is that in every League there are clubs who "cheat" by relying on cash from the owners to keep them going or to fund pushes for success.

Any club who doesn't follow this model will be seen to be less ambitious by the fans and will ultimately struggle and decline. It should be remembered that PAFC's problems began when the Stapleton lead Board didn't put money in so that the club could progress in the second tier- the less committed fans saw this as a lack of ambition(nine months after a full house against Watford in the Cup, the club was selling star players) and stopped going to games.

So, does the financial future look good at Home Park? No!


We should all bear in mind that Argyle will have to pay off debts of £3million+ plus over the next five years.

So the Club will not only have to "live within it's means" it will have to "live £600,000 within it's means" for that period. As has been said elsewhere, it's like having the first 2000 people through the turnstiles for nothing just to pay the debts. This has ruled out Argyle's "big club in a small league" advantage at a stroke

For most of this season, with relegation looking odds on Brent has refused to pump money into the team to stave off relegation, preferring to say he's not prepared to "cheat" and to go on the BBC to say that the BSP isn't that bad.

As long as there are Chairmen in this League who are prepared pump money into/support their club (delete according to opinion) those that don't will lose out.

You may not think it's right, but it's the reality of the situation. We should all support the small shopkeeper but when Tesco open a new store we all shop there!

Just ask yourselves where is the evidence that Argyle will in the next few years have the financial or fanbase support to survive in the Championship-under Brents ownership or anyone elses.Times have changed in the football world,I heard Brent telling an audience in the Guildhall we are aiming for the Championship,this from a guy who is a self confessed football no-nothing and as most fans realise he is probably naive to the negative effects of being in non league football.

akagreengull wrote:

Just ask yourselves where is the evidence that Argyle will in the next few years have the financial or fanbase support to survive in the Championship-under Brents ownership or anyone elses.Times have changed in the football world,I heard Brent telling an audience in the Guildhall we are aiming for the Championship,this from a guy who is a self confessed football no-nothing and as most fans realise he is probably naive to the negative effects of being in non league football.

FFS,of course the fan base is there to survive in the CCC.We averaged 16400 in our first season back there last time,more than Cardiff,Swansea or Bristol City managed.

Sandford_Grecian wrote:

GOB wrote:

To play the Devils advocate, what would have happened if England had won the hosting of the World Cup and Home Park the hosting of World Cup matches?

was never going to happen, any one with an ounce of sence could see that!!

This. Anyone who read Andrew Jennings' book would have realised that England were never, ever ever going to get the World Cup. It's beyond me why the FA even bothered bidding for it, let alone the then Argyle board/Mastpoint buying into the idea. All those Mastpointers can't have been that naive, could they? Oh.

But, of course, it was Jennings' fault that England lost the bid... or at least some of the tabloid media says it was, so it must be true.

Greenskin you are talking of crowds 3 years ago,this is 2012 I say again where is the evidence that we can either pay wages for decent players or attract crowds of 16,000-17,000 again?.This in the context of we could be out of the football league if results in the next few games go against us.I'ts called REALITY.

akagreengull wrote:

Greenskin you are talking of crowds 3 years ago,this is 2012 I say again where is the evidence that we can either pay wages for decent players or attract crowds of 16,000-17,000 again?.This in the context of we could be out of the football league if results in the next few games go against us.I'ts called REALITY.

I really dont understand your questioning here. Are you saying if Argyle started playing a winning brand of football and won a couple of promotions over the next few years that attendances and the club's finances wouldn't improve?

I can just imagine Greenskin's face