Argyle Statement on Youth Set-up

Mr President wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Well, that's the sugar-coated version.

Any news on how and why Allan Evans was f*cked over?

Czarcasm wrote:

Mr President wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Well, that's the sugar-coated version.

Any news on how and why Allan Evans was f*cked over?

He is a driving instructor and couldn't commit to working at Argyle FT. There doesn't always have to be a negative...

Czarcasm wrote:

Mr President wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Well, that's the sugar-coated version.

Any news on how and why Allan Evans was f*cked over?

The shirt auctions are no longer bringing enough in to cover his wages.

Expect there will be a few more staff members leaving in the summer.

Whatever the rights and wrongs concerning those leaving I am pleased to see Kevin Hodges take over. He's done his time coaching youngsters and is the embodiment of enthusiasm and professionalism. I can't think of anybody I'd rather see in the position.

Sir Francis Drake wrote:

Whatever the rights and wrongs concerning those leaving I am pleased to see Kevin Hodges take over. He's done his time coaching youngsters and is the embodiment of enthusiasm and professionalism. I can't think of anybody I'd rather see in the position.

Nothing against Hodges - absolute Argyle Legend, but he was a shite manager, and if his coaching skills were at any sort of professional level, why has no one ever snapped him up?

Bennetts and Evans version of events would make interesting reading, I reckon.

Good that Stoney is getting a chance as he's in the rare category of being an intelligent footballer. I have my doubts with Hodges but he has had similar roles with other clubs.

Interesting to see whether GB gets another job- wouldn't be surprised if he gets a role at Southampton.

Mr President wrote:

Czarcasm wrote:

Mr President wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Well, that's the sugar-coated version.

Any news on how and why Allan Evans was f*cked over?

He is a driving instructor and couldn't commit to working at Argyle FT. There doesn't always have to be a negative...

So either he makes more money as a driving instructor and can't afford to take a loss of wages, or, he would rather instruct people on how to drive, than coach them at football!

Either way, thats pretty much a negative.

Czarcasm, why do you think that Alan Evans was f**ked over? Is there some reason for the assumption. In any business or walk of life things change and the changes do not always fit in with the encumbent people and personnel change because of it. On other occasions people do just leave jobs with no particular motive or being driven out. Why is this any different and that is a serious question because I haven't seen any evidence of him being driven out of the club but acknowledge that I may have just not noticed it as I don't read all things Argyle. I understand that given what has gone on at Argyle previously there is a deep suspicion of most things but, and it pains me to say this, Mr Webb is right, there doesn't always have to be some sordid story attached to happenings.

Mr President wrote:

Czarcasm wrote:

Mr President wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Well, that's the sugar-coated version.

Any news on how and why Allan Evans was f*cked over?

He is a driving instructor and couldn't commit to working at Argyle FT. There doesn't always have to be a negative...

Was he being made to choose and under what terms?

Sensiblegreeny wrote:

Czarcasm, why do you think that Alan Evans was f**ked over? Is there some reason for the assumption. In any business or walk of life things change and the changes do not always fit in with the encumbent people and personnel change because of it. On other occasions people do just leave jobs with no particular motive or being driven out. Why is this any different and that is a serious question because I haven't seen any evidence of him being driven out of the club but acknowledge that I may have just not noticed it as I don't read all things Argyle. I understand that given what has gone on at Argyle previously there is a deep suspicion of most things but, and it pains me to say this, Mr Webb is right, there doesn't always have to be some sordid story attached to happenings.

Yes there is. I read the report in the Independent, and don't recall word for word what was written, but I'm pretty sure the phrase "offered a role on reduced terms" was somewhere in it.

I guess it's how you perceive being 'f*cked over'...

I think if anyone's going to get f**ked over here, it's the club, with the introduction of the the new Elite Player Performance Plan. Any promising players under the age of 11 won't be able to come to Argyle, but can be signed by Premier clubs (Arsenal already do regular roadshows in the South West), the levels of compensation are stacked against lower-league clubs, and, well, I could go on, but the whole thing seems to be designed to favour the Premier League clubs over the Football League clubs. It's not good news for a club like Argyle.

Czarcasm wrote:

Sensiblegreeny wrote:

Czarcasm, why do you think that Alan Evans was f**ked over? Is there some reason for the assumption. In any business or walk of life things change and the changes do not always fit in with the encumbent people and personnel change because of it. On other occasions people do just leave jobs with no particular motive or being driven out. Why is this any different and that is a serious question because I haven't seen any evidence of him being driven out of the club but acknowledge that I may have just not noticed it as I don't read all things Argyle. I understand that given what has gone on at Argyle previously there is a deep suspicion of most things but, and it pains me to say this, Mr Webb is right, there doesn't always have to be some sordid story attached to happenings.

Yes there is. I read the report in the Independent, and don't recall word for word what was written, but I'm pretty sure the phrase "offered a role on reduced terms" was somewhere in it.

I guess it's how you perceive being 'f*cked over'...

That is indeed the case,the article clearly stated that Evans had been offered a reduced role and terms,he would run the U16s and Hodges would take over his post.

Brent's president is right, there doesn't always have to be a negative but in this case there is.

Everything on the cheap. It was what we were promised. How long before the dynamic duo have their tracksuits on ?

Andy_Symons wrote:

I think if anyone's going to get f**ked over here, it's the club, with the introduction of the the new Elite Player Performance Plan. Any promising players under the age of 11 won't be able to come to Argyle, but can be signed by Premier clubs

There will be 4 categories of academy and the gradings will be based on a complexity of budget, staff levels, qualifications of staff, facilties and educational provision.

Argyle state that they are "going for" Grade 3 which means that they can coach boys at all age levels but more than likely can only secure their registration with the Football League after 10 years of age. No-one knows for sure yet (despite what you might have read in the media)

It is proposed that the current academies and centres of excellence will be divided into four categories, as follows:
Category 1
The top level category will require clubs to have an approximate budget of £2.325m.
Have a full time staff of at least 18.
Provide at least 5 hours contact time with players each week.
The current 90 minute travel rule will not apply.
Category 2
Clubs that cannot meet the required budget requirements and staff levels demanded by Category 1, but still have an indoor training facility will most likely fall into this category.
They will spend less time coaching players each week.
Will be allowed to take players from age 4 and sign players from the age of 9.
Will require an estimated budget of £969k
The current 90 minute travel rule will not apply.
Category 3
Clubs in this category will not be permitted to coach youngsters until they are 11
Will require an estimated budget of £315k
Category 4
Clubs in this category will be used to pick up youngsters that are late developers or have been released from other Academies or Centres of Excellence. Players will be 16 years of age or above.
Will require an estimated budget of £100k
Compensation Fees for each year of development
Age 9 to 11 – £3000 for players registered at any club
Age 12 to 16 – £12,500 for players registered at a Category 3 club
Age 12 to 16 – £25,000 for players registered at a Category 2 club
Age 12 to 16 – £40,000 for players registered at a Category 1 club
Player Age Groups
Foundation – Age 9 to 11
Youth – Age 12 to 16
Pro – Age 17 to 21

With this in mind, I have been involved in the setting up of a business offering elite (selection by ability) development based in North London with the potential to spread out borough by borough and city by city offering player development and coaching for under 6, 7 and 8 year olds in an indoor environment with showcasing facilities incorporating the academies and centres of excellence of clubs all over the country but particularly in the Greater London area.

With the new limitations on age related coaching in mind my partners and I have spent a lot of time trying to "sell" this to various professional clubs some of whom have acknowledged that is ideal for them given that they will be unable to coach the really young but NONE of them have been able to source the finance we were looking for to set up the business. This finance has now been sourced and we have also sold the naming rights to the project and now we also have two Premier League clubs expressing an interest in buying out the business. We don't want that however, we don't want exclusivity to one club but the freedom of the parent to select their club of choice for their child to move onto.

We have been showcasing youngsters up to the age of 11 to academies and CoEs for three years now and found placements for over 30 of them.

Yesterday we took a squad of under 11s to play at a Premier League club and although 3 of them are currently trialling at other professional clubs and were thus "unavailable for now" three others were immediately offered 6 week trials which will be subject to whether or not their parents wish them to have them. We neither charge nor receive anything for this as these boys have already "earned the right" through their talent and application, and those yesterday were drawn exclusively from a corridor of North London (Edmonton, Tottenham, Islington & Hackney) where there is hardly a spare pound amongst those parents of these talented kids.

The point I am trying to put over is that youth development isn't a tool for professional football clubs which are businesses to invest in purely for profit, it is there for youth development, personal attainment through hard work and application and that clubs should primarily be developing for the primary purpose of producing their own talent relevant to their particular standing in the world of football.

As ever, a long post from me; but I would ask you to take note of the vast differences in criteria between category 1 and below as regards the budget and resources needed to attain the various categories and then ask yourself the question that if you were the parent of a talented child living in the catchment area of your club would you seriously want to commit him to a club hundreds of miles from home at that young age. I don't think you would given the logistics and practicalities of the situation and due recognition that at these "mega" clubs you child ceases to be "Billy Wonder" but merely "Joe Average" and in danger of being spat out at any time.

In reality, if a child is going to make the ultimate grade at the age of 16 or 17, he is going to need to be in the top four or five of that year's crop at whatever club he is at ~ and THAT is a very serious matter to consider for any parent.

HERE'S A LITTLE BIT MORE INFORMATION ON HOW THE SYSTEM CURRENTLY WORKS.......................

I have taken this information from the data base on which I draw to answer FAQs that we get from the parents of players we currently seek to help:

When you join a football academy or centre of excellence you are joining a professional club and therefore your son will be required to sign a registration form for either 1 or 2 years, dependent on his age. Once you have signed, your son’s registration will then be lodged with the Football League.

There are currently 32 academies and 35 centres of excellence in England. Each have squads of players from the ages of 9 to 16 and most squads have around a dozen players in each, excluding the actual academy team. Therefore there are around 6500 boys attending professional clubs at any one time and only a very small percentage make it as a professional in any league.

Some Frequently Asked Questions:

Can my son still play for his local team?
No – Once you sign your registration form you will not be allowed to play for your local team.
Can I play for my school?
Maybe – Some academies allow you to represent your school and some don’t. It all depends on the policy that the academy/centre of excellence has. In some cases, you may be allowed to play for your school but training commitments can often get in the way as many academies run training sessions on Saturday mornings, which is when most schools play matches.
How long do trials last?
A maximum period of six weeks.
What age can I join an academy or centre of excellence?
You can train at a professional club from a very early age. Some academies take kids in as young as 6, however you cannot sign for a professional club until you are 9 years old.
How long does my registration last?
- Under 9, 10, 11 and 12 age groups registration is for a period of one year using registration form YD4.
- Under 13 to Under 16 registration is for two years using registration form YD4.
- Under 13 and under 16 where a player signs for the maximum period of 4 years on his twelfth birthday. Registration is for four years using registration form YD6.
- Under 13 to Under 18 years of age registration could be for up to six years using registration form YD6(A).
When do I have to sign my contract?
There is a window period that provides an opportunity for both players and clubs to decide if they wish to sign for the next season. These set times must be abided by. Clubs must notify a player on or before the third Saturday in April if they wish to retain or terminate the player’s registration for the next season.
What if I want to leave?
If you want to leave your academy or centre of excellence and you are regarded as a good player, you could be in for a long drawn out battle!
Be very careful which form you accept when you leave a club.
There are two types of forms that are used to cancel a players registration.
- Form YD10 (with compensation)
- Form YD7 (without compensation)
If a player is released on a Form YD10 a club is entitled to claim compensation from any other club that attempts to register the player with the Football League. No other club can register a player until the club that holds the player’s registration receives an acceptable compensation package, or provides the player with his YD7 form, which then releases the player without any compensation rights.
What are compensation rights?
Compensation rights are held by a professional club as soon as they submit a player’s registration form to the Football League. What this means is that a club may ask for compensation from another club that seeks to register a player that is already registered at the Football league.
For example, your 10 year old son joins ABC Academy and spends a full season there. The following season your son takes a dislike to the coach and decides he no longer enjoys his football at said academy. You make a few phone calls and bingo Academy XYZ welcomes him with open arms.
The painful bit comes when Academy XYZ submits your son’s registration form to the Football league and discovers that Academy ABC already hold the players registration. If Academy ABC sees potential in your son they will most likely ask for some form of compensation from Academy XYZ. This could amount to roughly £3000 for every year of development, plus add-ons in the event the player gets a scholarship and goes on to play professional football. In any event, very messy and not what you want to hear!
Not many people know that an academy or centre of excellence can hold the compensation rights for a player until they are 30 years old. Yes, 30 years old!
The fact is that most professional clubs will not pay compensation for young players, which means that a player could be left with no alternative but to return to local football if an agreement cannot be made between both clubs.
A player that has been released from a professional club on a YD10 and subsequently decides to return to Sunday League football for a period of time cannot sign for another professional club. There is a misconception that playing in the Sunday League for a season then allows a player to return to academy football without any compensation issues. This is not the case, as a club holds the compensation rights to a player until they are 30 years old if no action has been taken to obtain the players YD7 form.
What happens if my club will not release me?
If your son is stuck in no man’s land and a compensation package cannot be agreed, you can appeal to the Football League who will speak to the club on your behalf and act as a mediator. If an agreement still can’t be reached, the case will then go to a tribunal who will decide if any compensation is due.
Of course, your child should not join a professional club with the expectation that at some point he will move to another club, however you should be aware that by signing a registration form you could be committing your son to a professional club for a very long time!

Professional football clubs, and Plymouth Argyle as much as any other have had all the dice loaded in their favour for some time now. Those in The Football League who are now able to receive funding of twice the investment they themselves put in are still looking at a pretty good deal in my opinion.

It is a mistake for supporters of clubs to look at the question of youth development purely on the basis of "how much money can my club make out of this?" Clubs registering youngsters in their name and being able to hold onto that registration for effectively the whole of their youthful lives have as much rsponsibility to provide a duty of care as any school or other academy does.

Christ didn't realise it was as complicated as that Merse- thanks for the info.

So Mr President:-

is the budget for youth football at Argyle , going up, going down, or broadly staying the same?


I won't hold my breath for an answer.